Bonnets and badges at Burns dinners.

[JohntheBiker]

I think that you will find that the Canadian traditions tend to follow the British ones in such circumstances.

No decorations at the Burns Dinner hosted by the St. Andrews Society - clearly a civilian function. No headgear in evidence at all.

Our St. Andrews Charity Ball is an entirely different event. Decorations are encouraged, but the ball is jointly hosted with the 48th Highlanders of Canada and there is a clear and longstanding military connection.

[tpa]

Thanks for the replies chaps and I understand instantly the decoration mindset described for significant military events/General's/Admiral's birthdays, whatever . But I am a bit stuck on understanding why wear military decorations for one of the most un-military civilians that ever walked this earth one Mr R Burns who is not even part of anyone's nation other than Scotland. OK I can see the argument that Mr Burn's words have spread across the world, but why the military connection with decorations being worn?

I can see where you are coming from Jock, there is no obvious connection. It probably comes down to individual preference and perhaps expectations are different in other parts of the globe. I can understand people wearing their medals to certain events such as the D-day reunion as it shows that they were actually involved and there is no other way of knowing. I cannot speak for myself but I can recollect my father being reluctant to wear his own ship re-union. There was no need, he would not have been there if he had not been involved. He was reluctant to discuss his war experiences with his nearest and dearest never mind announcing it to outsiders. As for wearing them with his kilt - no way - there was no connection.

[OC Richard]

Below is how I appeared at a Burns supper a couple years ago. I am in most things a 'less is more' person, and I wore no hat and not even a kilt pin.

Other than myself, the even was, pretty much, a sea of black Prince Charlies, and there were bonnets and badges galore.

Jock, it seems to me (and I'll have to post that little 'run and hide' icon for saying things like this) that here in the USA there are at least two factors working which help create the sorts of things you've been seeing in those photos...

1) The "if ya got it, flaunt it!" mindset. Yes, the Ugly American who drives the most expensive car he can afford, gaudy jewellery, $300 sunglasses, etc etc. When I was in Scotland my wife and I, trying our best to fly under the radar, dressed plainly, soft-spoken, were horrified to see an enormous obese Texan, complete with cowboy hat, bolo tie, huge blingy rings on all eight fingers, a belt buckle the size of some towns, and ornate cowboy boots made of some exotic creature, waddling into the shop on The Royal Mile that we happened to be in. He was bellowing loudly. We escaped out a side door quickly as possible. Well how would you expect this same guy to dress for a Burns supper?

2) The mystifying (to me) way in which, in the minds of many Americans, Highland Dress exists in some fourth dimension outside of the ordinary rules of time and space. So one sees, at our local Highland Games, things like a person wearing a "Jacobite" shirt, High Victorian sporran and dirk, diced Glengarry with big feather, hose-tops without spats, moccasins on the feet, huge claymore strapped across the back, and topped off with big sunglasses and a cell phone. (No, really, I've seen this exact thing.) Highland Dress is very often depicted, and worn, in a quasi-18th century style, as if time stopped around 1776. Likewise, if someone wears Highland Dress to a 'colonial ball' or 'Napoleonic ball' or 'Civil War ball' their outfit invariably includes 20th century items. (Sorry, a pet peeve of mine.) Well how might you expect such a person to dress to a Burns supper?

I'll run and hide now

(next stop, the Cooling Off Corner...)

[macwilkin]

Thanks for the replies chaps and I understand instantly the decoration mindset described for significant military events/General's/Admiral's birthdays, whatever . But I am a bit stuck on understanding why wear military decorations for one of the most un-military civilians that ever walked this earth one Mr R Burns who is not even part of anyone's nation other than Scotland. OK I can see the argument that Mr Burn's words have spread across the world, but why the military connection with decorations being worn?

Also, looking at the current batch of Burns night pictures posted here the glengarry outnumbers the balmoral by many times, is this I wonder, part of the civilian/ military thinking that shows itself by the wearing of decorations? I am really not criticising or wanting to cause offence, but I am trying to get to grips with the thinking that is very different to how most of us think here. Let me stress that I am not talking about one mode of thinking is better than the other, but different they are.

Just a wee reminder that Burns himself was a soldier, a ranker in the Dumfries Volunteers, and from what noted Burnsian scholars have determined, a devoted member of the unit. He served in the months before his death, and was very active on the unit committee. While originally sympathetic to the French Revolution, after the Reign of Terror and the potential threat of French invasion, Burns cast his lot with others who formed a home-guard style local defence force, the Volunteer movement. Members of the various volunteer units even formed a guard of honour at Burns' funeral, and fired a volley over his grave.

It should also be pointed out that the first Burns Supper was in fact a "military" affair, when members of the Argyll militia gathered at Burns' house soon after his death in tribute to him -- the residence had ironically been turned into an ale house! <grin> If I remember correctly (and I'll verify this with Mr. Hugh Douglas's excellent history of Burns Suppers at home tonight) that it was the sergeant's mess that held this first Burns Supper in 1799 or 1801, long before any Burns Club had formed.

I think the observations of this being a diaspora trend are spot-on. Burns Suppers simply tend to be more a "do" outwith Scotland; for many Caledonian/St. Andrew's Societies, it's their flagship event. In my increasing dotage, I prefer the more "traditional" Burns Supper, but I see nothing wrong with the big "dos" either. I'm more concerned with how much the programme focuses on the works of Burns, rather than just a "Scottish" dinner that pays lip-service to him. But that's my 'twa bob'.

T.

[The Wizard of BC]

I'm going to attempt to make an observation here that may go a little way into answering Jock's question.

Now, please understand that this is coming from someone who was born and raised in the US and who served in the US Military during the period from the end of Viet-Nam to the Gulf War.

I now reside in Victoria, BC Canada. I had been up here for four years when the twin towers came down. Like much of the world I saw it only on TV.

The last time I was a full time resident of the US, we in the military, did not talk or display anything that denoted our service in the Military. The specter of Viet-Nam was still with the nation. I would not call it a feeling of shame, more a feeling of "we were caught in something we do not brag about".

There was a great respect among VN vets but it was different from that among the vets of WWII.

Then, during my visits back to the US, I began to notice a very distinct change. It started with the national feeling towards those returning from service in the Middle East. Retuning Vets were greeted with applause as they came though airports. They began to be cheered and they we sought out for handshakes.
This may have been a backlash from those days when vets were spit upon at the airport.

It probably took a while to catch on and many Americans may not have noticed it, but I did seeing it from the outside. I began to be asked about my Viet-Nam service. I was given a gift of a hat saying "Viet-Nam Vet" during one of my visits and encouraged to wear it.

Those outside the US may not understand the impact that the events since 9-11 have had on the American national consciousness. Firefighters and Police are seen as heroes now, where before 9-11 they were seen as unsung public servants.

I have noticed that it is now a matter of National pride in the US to show, and be proud, of your service. Be it military, police, firefighter or anyone else who puts on a uniform to go to work.

I guess I notice these symbols of service and symbols of National pride because I missed the period when it became traditional to show them. Perhaps they stand out simply because it is so different from my days.

As others have noted, the kilt in the US, is closely associated with uniforms. Military and Pipe band uniforms are the only time most Americans see a kilt. They also see that it is not a real uniform. One worn as part of your service. It is special occasion wear with a military flare. I can't really fault anyone for making the leap from a Pipe or Drum Major in full rig to wearing a kilt with the symbols of their own service.

So to address your question directly Jock. It's an American thing. I doubt you can, or ever will, understand it as you do not live there and have not experienced it from within that culture.
It will seem as strange to you Jock as it does to me now. But I can assure you that it is real.

[Glen]

In this part of the woods, Burns Suppers are mainly formal events, with the pipe band in dress uniforms wearing full size medals, and guests in mess kits with miniatures or black tie, again with miniatures; however, many guests will wear lesser forms of dress down to blue jeans (western formal).

As for the diaspora, four and a half Canadians describe themselves a Scottish, some for generations here; Scots marring Scots, marring Scots.

Burns used to be taught here in school in 'English'...