Fly Plaid at Burns Supper?

[TheVintageLibertine]

Is it possibly relevant that the very notion of a Burns Supper is based on the "immortal memory" of an event first held in 1801?

Would not accessorization of one's dress for the evening in a manner that might have been appropriate for THOSE times be just as appropriate as modern highland dress?

…

Richard, are you aware of any images made from people who actually ATTENDED early Burns Suppers?

(I'm generally curious and uninformed, rather than attempting to advance a proposal here).

I would hazard a guess that group of friends and admirers who started the tradition of celebrating Burns’s works and memory on his birthday in 1801 didn't wear clothing that was particularly “Scottish” because the “tartan craze” didn’t happen until several decades later.

[jsrnephdoc]

I would hazard a guess that group of friends and admirers who started the tradition of celebrating Burns’s works and memory on his birthday in 1801 didn't wear clothing that was particularly “Scottish” because the “tartan craze” didn’t happen until several decades later.

Do we have a good idea HOW they would have dressed for that memorial celebration? Perhaps more relevant, what do we know about how Burns himself dressed, particularly later in his life, after it was clear there was more money to be made from writing wonderful verse than from farming infertile land? And, so far as "costumes" vs. customary semi-formal dress is concerned, couldn't virtually ANY wearing of kilts (except for weddings, graduations, and perhaps clan gatherings) be considered "costuming" rather than "custom," ESPECIALLY in Scotland?

Even at celebrations of Scotland's distinct heritage; e.g., the Royal Military Tattoo, the number of people who show up wearing "modern" kilts or even little bits of tartan is quite small. In that context, one might argue that when the food is ancient and the recitations old, dressing in the manner people did the first time such an event was held might be ENTIRELY appropriate, perhaps even ESPECIALLY if none of the attendees would have been kilted.

After all, events such as Burns night suppers are QUINTESSENTIAL "look-backs," and if those are shoehorned into stringent "rules," we risk forgetting from whence they originated. Such is the state of affairs right now in the USA, where history is being "sanitized" for quite ugly reasons.

[Jock Scot]

Do we have a good idea HOW they would have dressed for that memorial celebration? Perhaps more relevant, what do we know about how Burns himself dressed, particularly later in his life, after it was clear there was more money to be made from writing wonderful verse than from farming infertile land? And, so far as "costumes" vs. customary semi-formal dress is concerned, couldn't virtually ANY wearing of kilts (except for weddings, graduations, and perhaps clan gatherings) be considered "costuming" rather than "custom," ESPECIALLY in Scotland?

Even at celebrations of Scotland's distinct heritage; e.g., the Royal Military Tattoo, the number of people who show up wearing "modern" kilts or even little bits of tartan is quite small. In that context, one might argue that when the food is ancient and the recitations old, dressing in the manner people did the first time such an event was held might be ENTIRELY appropriate, perhaps even ESPECIALLY if none of the attendees would have been kilted.

After all, events such as Burns night suppers are QUINTESSENTIAL "look-backs," and if those are shoehorned into stringent "rules," we risk forgetting from whence they originated. Such is the state of affairs right now in the USA, where history is being "sanitized" for quite ugly reasons.

I think with the greatest of respect, you are failing to understand how, or why, the Scots choose to wear the kilt or tartan, or, not. It's more like "just because we(the Scots) can, does not mean that we should". That privilege of choice is open to all Scots and many of us take advantage of that. In this situation under discussion here at this present time is a classic example of some of the Scots not wishing to make that choice and is no surprise to us. You may not understand it, but that is actually the way it is.

I don't wish to be rude , but we don't need others, from outwith these shores to criticise our choices.

[Father Bill]

Respectfully, your position in this thread is making me think that you're looking for any possible reason to 'dress up' rather than staying within the usual norms. Be careful not to push it too hard.

Do we have a good idea HOW they would have dressed for that memorial celebration? Perhaps more relevant, what do we know about how Burns himself dressed, particularly later in his life, after it was clear there was more money to be made from writing wonderful verse than from farming infertile land? And, so far as "costumes" vs. customary semi-formal dress is concerned, couldn't virtually ANY wearing of kilts (except for weddings, graduations, and perhaps clan gatherings) be considered "costuming" rather than "custom," ESPECIALLY in Scotland?

Even at celebrations of Scotland's distinct heritage; e.g., the Royal Military Tattoo, the number of people who show up wearing "modern" kilts or even little bits of tartan is quite small. In that context, one might argue that when the food is ancient and the recitations old, dressing in the manner people did the first time such an event was held might be ENTIRELY appropriate, perhaps even ESPECIALLY if none of the attendees would have been kilted.

After all, events such as Burns night suppers are QUINTESSENTIAL "look-backs," and if those are shoehorned into stringent "rules," we risk forgetting from whence they originated. Such is the state of affairs right now in the USA, where history is being "sanitized" for quite ugly reasons.

[Janner52]

Do we have a good idea HOW they would have dressed for that memorial celebration? Perhaps more relevant, what do we know about how Burns himself dressed, particularly later in his life, after it was clear there was more money to be made from writing wonderful verse than from farming infertile land? And, so far as "costumes" vs. customary semi-formal dress is concerned, couldn't virtually ANY wearing of kilts (except for weddings, graduations, and perhaps clan gatherings) be considered "costuming" rather than "custom," ESPECIALLY in Scotland?

Even at celebrations of Scotland's distinct heritage; e.g., the Royal Military Tattoo, the number of people who show up wearing "modern" kilts or even little bits of tartan is quite small. In that context, one might argue that when the food is ancient and the recitations old, dressing in the manner people did the first time such an event was held might be ENTIRELY appropriate, perhaps even ESPECIALLY if none of the attendees would have been kilted.

After all, events such as Burns night suppers are QUINTESSENTIAL "look-backs," and if those are shoehorned into stringent "rules," we risk forgetting from whence they originated. Such is the state of affairs right now in the USA, where history is being "sanitized" for quite ugly reasons.

Burns was born and lived in Dumfries which is very much in the south of Scotland. He would have worn clothes much the same as any Lowland Scot or, for that matter, Englishman of his class, for that period in time. This would not have included the kilt.

[jsrnephdoc]

I don't wish to be rude , but we don't need others, from outwith these shores to criticise our choices.

My goodness! I did not mean to be critical at ALL. I just paraphrased what I've read and seen myself: that the wearing of Kilts, even at celebrations of Scottish history, is uncommon. Indeed, I've been told that seeing someone on the street in Edinburgh or Glasgow wearing the kilt, but not as an occupational uniform of some sort is a pretty good way to mark that person as a tourist! And, I would welcome any corrections if my observations are in any way incorrect.

And, by no means did I intend to demean the occasional Scot who wears the kilt routinely and comfortably.

ALL my questioning in this thread stemmed from curiosity regarding what happens at Burns Night Suppers, both in Scotland and around the world. My understanding (which may be incorrect) is that there WAS no Burns tartan while he was alive, and that even if there were, he likely wouldn't have been wearing it. I AM pretty familiar with what constitutes contemporary day and evening highland wear, but curious just because Burns Night is SPECIAL whether there might be ways beyond wearing clothes he and his friends probably NEVER wore to mark the occasion.

[Jock Scot]

My goodness! I did not mean to be critical at ALL. I just paraphrased what I've read and seen myself: that the wearing of Kilts, even at celebrations of Scottish history, is uncommon. Indeed, I've been told that seeing someone on the street in Edinburgh or Glasgow wearing the kilt, but not as an occupational uniform of some sort is a pretty good way to mark that person as a tourist! And, I would welcome any corrections if my observations are in any way incorrect.

And, by no means did I intend to demean the occasional Scot who wears the kilt routinely and comfortably.

ALL my questioning in this thread stemmed from curiosity regarding what happens at Burns Night Suppers, both in Scotland and around the world. My understanding (which may be incorrect) is that there WAS no Burns tartan while he was alive, and that even if there were, he likely wouldn't have been wearing it. I AM pretty familiar with what constitutes contemporary day and evening highland wear, but curious just because Burns Night is SPECIAL whether there might be ways beyond wearing clothes he and his friends probably NEVER wore to mark the occasion.

I am afraid that you need to curb your obvious enthusiasm for all things Scottish in general and increase your rather sparse but starry eyed knowledge of tartan and kilt attire in particular and listen, read and digest, before you leap to conclusions! Yes, we all had to learn even in Scotland and really understand that these finer points of knowledge of Scotland , such as, the Scots past and present, tartans and Scottish history. They are not something that can, always, be learned from a book, or a few weeks holiday here. After a fairly long life spent mostly in Scotland, I am still learning! The hardest part of that learning curve, is divorcing the tourist nonsense and certain Clan biasses, from fact. Not an easy task even for a local and even now I have to review my thoughts and ideas from time to time!

[OC Richard]

Burns was born and lived in Dumfries which is very much in the south of Scotland. He would have worn clothes much the same as any Lowland Scot or, for that matter, Englishman of his class, for that period in time. This would not have included the kilt.

Exactly so.

The historian in me finds it odd for people to roll out their Highland Dress for a Lowland event.

What's the quote? a Lowlander scoffing "my people never wore kilts. They could afford trousers."

A research paper traced the rise in men hiring kilts for weddings in the Lowlands which began only in the 1980s.

On the other hand, in 1914 Loudon MacQueen Douglas RFSE, FSA Scot. published a book titled

The Kilt: A Manual of Scottish National Dress

Therein he states

1746 to the present day:

The third period in the history of Scottish Dress may be said to have begun in 1746. During the following 36 years a policy of extinction was carried out, but it was defeated by the popularity of the tartan in the Lowlands, so that from 1782 onwards the wearing of tartan became general all over Scotland...From then until now there is little to chronical in connection with the Scottish National Dress except that it has become the emblem of Scotsmen in whatever part of the world...

Beyond that, any student of historical military uniform well knows the Highlandising of the dress of the Lowland Regiments, who were originally dressed the same as English and Welsh regiments, but were put in tartan trews beginning in the 1880s. They also acquired Highland pipers (the Lowland pipes having gone extinct less than a century prior.)

This trend became complete with the formation of the Royal Regiment of Scotland, when all Scottish infantry Highland and Lowland alike were put into complete Highland kit.

[OC Richard]

I am afraid that you need to curb your obvious enthusiasm for all things Scottish in general and increase your rather sparse but starry-eyed knowledge of tartan and kilt attire in particular and listen, read and digest, before you leap to conclusions! Yes, we all had to learn even in Scotland and really understand that these finer points of knowledge of Scotland, such as, the Scots past and present, tartans and Scottish history. They are not something that can, always, be learned from a book, or a few weeks holiday here. After a fairly long life spent mostly in Scotland, I am still learning!

Hear, hear!

I'm so indebted to Jock Scot's tireless, kind, but firm guidance over the years. Americans like myself coming to this topic don't know what they don't know (until someone tells them).

The hardest part of that learning curve is divorcing the tourist nonsense...from fact.

Which nonsense has experienced a massive recent infusion (the last thing it needed) from Outlander.

One theme of this thread has been a puzzling thing I've often mentioned: in the mind of the American public Highland Dress floats in a bubble outside the passage of time.

This leads Americans who would never think of wearing an item or two of 18th century clothing when dressed for their day-to-day activities to do so when they don Highland Dress.

Would they show up for a wedding in an ordinary modern suit but wearing a Tricorn hat?

But with Highland Dress time itself evidently doesn't exist, and they'll walk around wearing various bits of historical 18th century and Victorian clothing with their otherwise modern Scottish outfit.

The flip side of wearing historical items at ordinary modern functions wearing modern items at historical functions, and I see that too.

I see men attending themed "Dickens Balls" or "Victorian Balls", where everyone not in Highland Dress is wearing period costume, wearing 20th century Highland outfits, especially Prince Charlies (which didn't appear until the Edwardian period), the sorts of sporrans that didn't appear until after WWI, and the white hose + Viking-laced Ghillies, or "semi dress" sporrans, both Kilt Hire c1980 things. (Even the gent wearing the red military doublet seen below is anachronistic for a Dickens event; that style of doublet and sporran didn't exist until around 1870.)

[Jock Scot]

Crikey! Thank you for those kind words of yours, OCR!