Clan badges vs family crests??

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

So, you can't wear the clan badges or these so called "coat of arms"??

maybe I'm reading the text wrong ,but that's what I'm getting here.

The clansman's badge (that buckle and strap pin with a motto on it and some sort of devise in the centre that most people attach to the side of their bonnet) is the distinctive mark of an individual who professes to be a follower of a particular Clan Chief. Ideally, if you wear a clansman's badge, you should be a member of that clan's society or association.

Now this is one of those "rules" that is often more honoured in the breach than the keeping, and it is doubtful that the Chief of Clan MacX would complain too much about you sporting the badge of one of his clansman on your bonnet if you weren't a card-carrying member of the Clan MacX Society. Legally he could, but in practice I doubt very much he'd be bothered.

Now the clansman's badge is not the same thing as a coat of arms. The coat of arms is the design painted on a shield-- Sketraw's avatar is an excellent example of a coat of arms. A coat of arms is personal property and no one other than John Duncan of Sketraw may use or display his coat of arms without his explicit permission. The same applies to the coat of arms of the Chief of Clan MacX-- it belongs exclusively to the Chief, and no one can use or display his arms without his explicit permission.

So, if you wear a clansman's badge, in effect, what you are saying is "I am a follower of the Chief of my clan".

Now this opens up the question "WHO IS A CLANSMAN?"... and I think that calls for a new thread, so I'll start one.

[Sketraw]

I think part of the problem here is that some Clan Societies confuse the issue here by saying, this is the "COA of Clan X" rather than this is the COA of the "Chief of Clan X".

Terminology is also a big factor in this confusion perpetuated by 'Bucket Shop' Heraldry (no doubt mentioned before) in the use of the word 'Crest' or 'Crest of X' to mean the whole Achievment of arms (Coat of Arms) the Crest, Helm, Mantling and Shield combined.

[BoldHighlander]

This illustration might help in what I mentioned seeing in an earlier post.
Thats where I've seen (more than once) illustrated the crest with the motto above it *but* no belt etc encircling it.
Is it improper to display this way, or is it allowed in some form or another?
Just curious...

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

John, how excellent of you to provide a diagram of the full achievement of an armiger! Hopefully this will go some way in clearing up the confusion caused by the correct/incorrect usage of heraldic terms when referring to the bits and bobs that combine to make up the heraldic achievement of an individual.

Perhaps you could scan in examples of a Chief's badge, an Armiger's badge, and a Clansman's badge for those folks who may not be familiar with them?

Scott

[Sketraw]

Crest Badges

A note on the wearing of feathers, HM Queen is the only one allowed to wear 4 feathers as Chief of Chiefs.

[Sean_the_Kilted]

Crest Badges

A note on the wearing of feathers, HM Queen is the only one allowed to wear 4 feathers as Chief of Chiefs.

Thanks for posting the illustrations. What exactly is a armiger and whats the difference between a clan cheif and a chieftain. Finally are the feathers supposed to be representive of feathers from any particular type of bird (ie eagle, turkey, pigeon) or are they just generic feathers and why feathers (native american headdress allusion?)

[Sean_the_Kilted]

Other than bragging rights, what good is a coat of arms? If I have a registered coat of arms in scotland or england, what does that enable me to do? If I was a UK resident (which I'm not),whats to prevent me from designing my own coat of arms and putting it on all my letterhead and other things without registering it? As long as its not owned by someone else, is there a penalty for doing so?

[macwilkin]

Other than bragging rights, what good is a coat of arms? If I have a registered coat of arms in scotland or england, what does that enable me to do?

The American College of Heraldry has this to say about the value of heraldry, Sean:

Armorial bearings contain a quality of intangibility which is most significant to the family. Lands, monies and properties may be lost because of economic changes, wars and other disaster, leaving ensuing generations without inheritance. However, a coat of arms is a recorded design of identification which is fully able to survive change and loss. It can even endure a dormant period only to be reclaimed by rightful descendants at a later time. At the armiger's demise, he leaves an armorial estate to his descendants throughout all future generations. It is a legacy which can never be depleted, devalued, lost or stolen; rather, the arms of just and honorable persons singularly increase in their meaning, significance and value as they are taken up and borne by those descendants in each generation who proudly claim their birthright by registering to bear the ancestral arms.

-- http://www.americancollegeofheraldry.org/

I think that sums up the value of heraldry quite nicely.

If I was a UK resident (which I'm not),whats to prevent me from designing my own coat of arms and putting it on all my letterhead and other things without registering it? As long as its not owned by someone else, is there a penalty for doing so?

An answer to this question can be found on the Heraldry Society of Scotland's web site:

Displaying arms which are not registered to you, or which you do not have a right to, can lead to prosecution in countries such as Scotland, where heraldry is carefully regulated. In other countries you could just look foolish.

-- http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/beginners.html

Regards,

Todd

[Sean_the_Kilted]

Quote:
Displaying arms which are not registered to you, or which you do not have a right to, can lead to prosecution in countries such as Scotland, where heraldry is carefully regulated. In other countries you could just look foolish.
-- http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/beginners.html

So pretty much anyone in scotland with a mug or t-shirt with a unregistered coat of arms, even if they designed it themselves, could be proscuted? What are the penaltiss for doing so? and has it been proscuted in recent times?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Quote:
Displaying arms which are not registered to you, or which you do not have a right to, can lead to prosecution in countries such as Scotland, where heraldry is carefully regulated. In other countries you could just look foolish.
-- http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/beginners.html

So pretty much anyone in scotland with a mug or t-shirt with a unregistered coat of arms, even if they designed it themselves, could be proscuted? What are the penaltiss for doing so? and has it been proscuted in recent times?

The Scottish office of arms is part of the Scottish court system, and the Lord Lyon is, in fact, a judge. One of the court officers is the Procurator Fiscal-- a sort of prosecuting attorney for the Court of the Lord Lyon. Every year several cases are brought before the Lyon Court and most are settled without the need for recourse to a trial. However some do go to trial and the penalties assessed can be significant.

In one rather high profile case the authorites stepped in and forced a bus company to remove "unlawfully displayed" arms from both sides of more than (as I recall) fifty busses. Other examples include the confiscation of goods, and the levying of fines.

Perhaps the most famous was the recent prosecution brought against the self-styled "Prince Michael of Albany" which resulted in criminal prosecution, loss of British nationality, and deportation back to his place of birth.

Now here's the thing. Lord Lyon doesn't go looking for cases to prosecute, the prosecutions are brought forward by private citizens and reviewed by the Court of the Lord Lyon. If they are found to be of merit then the case is referred to the Procurator Fiscal who initiates the legal process of dealing with the matter on behalf of the state.

So, aside from looking foolish, the numpty who designs his own coat of arms runs the very real risk that some self-appointed member of the Heraldry Police will complain to the authorites, and he'll be brought up on charges.

A "punishable display" is just that-- the display of any arms to which you have no legal rights (and that includes the clever design someone cooked up on his kitchen table). Displaying the shield alone is enough to warrant a proscecution, regardless of how it is displayed. Now if it is displayed within the four walls of your home, it is considered an artistic decoration, and no offense has ocurred. BUT if you use it in business (and that would include e-commerce) then it would constitute an offense. The sale of depictations of coats of arms (at least in Scotland) is, more or less, self-regulated by the manufacturers and retailers who have wisely decided that they do not wish to become embroiled in litigation, and therefore supply only the clansman's badge in the general course of their trade. Again, the position of the Lyon seems to be that as these are sold as "decorative items" no offense has ocurred.

As far as shop windows are concerned-- well the Procurator Fiscal has the statutory right to "smash the window" if necessary. 'Nuff said?

Hope that answers a few of your questions!