Legally kilted

[Chris Webb]

Thank GOD I'm SELF EMPLOYED!!

My kilts actually GET me business, but, as a self employed person I can use what ever I WANT to get business. One more thing, I, as the owner of my own business, can REQUIRE an employee to wear a kilt as a condition of employment. Imagine THAT!

I posted earlier the simple way the original poster of this thread could meet the requirements of being able to wear a kilt ... adopt a religion that expects kilt wearing or develop a desease that requires kilt wearing as treatment.

Having had more time to think about it I realize I left off the EASIEST and most COURAGEOUS way to get to wear a kilt to work: Quit working for a boss and BE a boss.

For God's sake, don't think you can EVER have the freedom of a dog running outside the fence and STILL have all the safety of living inside of it.

I hate to say it but many of the men who want to wear a kilt at work and can't because of 'company policy' are simply trying to have their cake and eat it too. The company likely gives you so freakin' many benefits that you are practically being baby sat.

I have no medical benefits, no corporate retirement, no sick leave, no vacation days, no paid leave of any kind ... BUT I have FREEDOM and can wear my kilt any damned time I want. PLUS, I work to purchase all those benefits for myself anyway, nobody has to 'give' them to me.

Truth is any of the men on this forum could have the same Freedom I have, they're just not willing to pay the price for it. Stop whining. Stop threatening legal action. Fall in line and collect your checks and benefits packages ... in whatever clothes they tell you to wear.

Frankly, the brave women who won the rights for all women to wear pants are likely not impressed by us ... they wore what they wanted and often got fired. Those women already showed us how it's done ... most of us are just not man enough to do what they did.

The courts will never take an interest in men's rights to wear kilts until a few men are genuinely hurt by the current rules. A few of you are going to have to lose jobs. Freedom isn't free, never is.

Crying, "Jane gets to wear pants so why can't I wear a skirt," just isn't going to cut it.

Kilt On, if you can.

Chris Webb

[Archangel]

The other day after much debate the head of my company's HR department with the VP decide that kilts were not appropriate unless worn for medical or religous reasons. With a medical or religous reason you can wear almost anything. The question is do any of my fellow x-markers know of any US legal cases to refute the HR deamons.

I figured I'd put in the original question so we're back on track. I've got some training/education in this area so I'll give you what I know.

First, and please don't jump on me until you get all your facts straight, the US doesn't have any real Human Rights laws. Check it out and get over it.

Now, some states do have some Human Rights and certain businesses do because dealing with internationals demand it. Some unions have made huge gains but, because unions are seen as the "enemy" to most Americans, those gains haven't advanced to other job sites.

International jurisprudence gives you the edge, and so do some state rulings.

Here's what you need to find out. Your bosses referred to some Human Rights terms: medical or religious. Usually, if there is a Human Rights (HR) law it includes more than that. Those are two "grounds", Canada has 11, Ontario has 14 (I might be a bit out of date on those numbers, the principle is right). The ones you want to see are National/Ethnic Origin or Gender. (The one you really want to see is Culture but you won't.)

Gender is usually two parts: for simplicity's sake, harassment and equity. You're not talking about harassment until after you wear the kilt, unless they are giving you a hard time just for asking. Equity should be a two street, if a woman can wear a skirt, a man can. (A kilt is a type of skirt, get over it.) Reality says that you will have a long fight to win this, and deep pockets. In most other countries, the gov't would help you fight this. Unfortunately, you're in the US.

National/Ethnic Origin is getting stronger. It's really not that good an argument right now but Scotland has done some interesting things lately to strengthen your claim. Kilts have become standard at some national institutions and the reason the army went to kilts was national identity.

So, anyway, didn't mean to offend about your country. You'll probably need a good lawyer, patience and deep pockets. Good luck.

In the meantime, ask your people to define "professional attire", have a look at Geoffrey Kilts, 21stCenturyKilt, and see how they compare. Patience is probably your best ally. The Zen is "be strong like grass", let the wind move over you and stand up to it again. The time to "be strong like an oak" is not now, you'll be uprooted and never rise again.

[Archangel]

Did a bit of research for you:

Colorado State: Human Rights legislation is not really there and very little is protected. The Equality of Sexes language is very basic and might allow the argument that if women can, then so can men. They'll probably argue not intent of law. If their people twist it to cross dressing, there is definitely no hope.

Denver City has Human Rights Language which does not cover National/Ethnic Origin.

In contrast, Boulder has better language which does have the grounds you need. Some of these grounds are in direct conflict with state law so it gets interesting.

It's a very confusing legal system there, but it looks like your best bet would be to start working with people to make Denver's laws the same as Boulder's. Better yet, work with others to make Colorado's like Boulder's.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, I've just had some good training in this field. Also, each word in law may have a different legal meaning than the normal, or the same legal word anywhere else.

[Chris Webb]

... or you could just wear your freakin' kilt to work and enjoy the sense of pride that comes from having the courage and intestinal fortitude to be a trail blazer.

Given the history and heritage that this forum takes such pride in regarding the kilt I find myself amazed at how many men here apply themselves so earnestly to the seeking of permission to wear it. It seems to me that any man needing permission from anyone lacks the prerequisite courage and confidence to wear a kilt in the first place.

Put on your kilt and go to work! No permission, no explanation. If anyone gives you crap then beat your chest and dare them to take it off of you. If you lose your job then so be it, flash them your regimental *** and get a job elsewhere. Obviously there are other places to work kilted or there wouldn't be men on this forum doing it.

Frankly, if you're not willing to lose your job over wearing a kilt then you're not all that committed to wearing a kilt to work anyway. Does anyone on this forum really think that society is just going to change in kiltings' favor with out being forced to? Will saying, "Please, please, pretty please can I wear my man skirt," really going to change anything?

There are men on here who are forcing change. There are men on here who are the only men kilted in the community in which they work and live. There are men on here who are wearing their kilts in front of wives, family and bosses who don't approve of them. There are men on here who refuse to squeeze their balls back into trousers and defy both laws and societal norms that would force them to ...

... these men deserve to wear the kilt. I AM one of these men.

Are you?

Chris Webb

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

Hey Chris, we get it, you are the studliest guy on the forum and can do anything you want.

However, you are not me, or anyone else on the forum, and you don't know the ins and outs of everybody's lives. Certainly anyone could just show at the office wearing a kilt, be fired, and then (hopefully) find another job by walking across the street. Depending on where you are in your life, that might suit you fine. For others, that impact may not just be to themselves, but to their spose, children, and other family members.

Its been brought up before that all of us wear a kilt for different reasons, and at different times and places. SB996 asked for specific legal cases refuting a company's dress code policy based on medical/religious qualifications. If you don't have any helpful information, and want to start a new thread to discuss reasons people wear a kilt, please do so and discontinue ranting on this thread.

I will also point out that discussions like this have taken place in the past and the thread is almost always locked down and/or deleted fairly quickly.

[phinz]

SB996 asked for specific legal cases refuting a company's dress code policy based on medical/religious qualifications

Religious ruling, siding with employee. Head scarf.

Religious ruling, siding with employee. Tattoos this time.

If you can prove medical or religious necessity, then typically your company must make what the courts refer to as "reasonable accomodations". Examples: Turbans for Sikhs. A stool to sit on for an employee who cannot stand for long periods of time because of medical reasons. Regular bathroom breaks for an employee with medical necessity. Abayas for Muslim women. In a business setting, it's a crap shoot whether or not a kilt would have to be accomodated for medical or religious reasons, dependent on whether or not the courts would see the accomodation of a kilt as an "unreasonable burden" on the company.

[Chris Webb]

I stand corrected and accept your declaration as the House Chairman that I am the studliest guy on the forum!

I do also stand by the notion that the very laws SB996 is looking for are insufficient to protect his right to wear a kilt and that said laws will not be changed with out the sacrifice and civil disobedience of at least a handful of kilted men willing to do it. SB996 could be one of that handful.

What you wrote regarding the negative consequences of being one of that handful is absolutely correct and is the very definition of sacrifice. Most people naturally avoid such sacrifices. But it is those who do not who will eventually facilitate the protective laws currently sought after by SB996.

Respectfully submitted,

Chris Webb

[Riverkilt]

...
Put on your kilt and go to work! No permission, no explanation.

Chris Webb

What "rules?" What "statutes." Jeez, this is AMERICA. This thread sure does show the difference between those of us who live in the city and those of us who live in the boonies....hope this is keeping with the tone of this thread.

Can't imagine how or why an American citizen would need some sort of rule or statute to dress as he pleases (yes, yes safety situations and corporate uniforms aside).

As I recall, "go to work! No permission, no explanation" is what women did years ago when it came to their wearing pants in the workplace. Think history will back up my besotted memory.

That's what I did, and it worked. Course living alone I didn't need anyone's permission to kilt up.

I did begin wearing kilts around this boonie town as if it was the most normal thing in the world. And I showed up that way at work too. And when I went full time kilted I just kept showing up kilted every day.

Yes, I had to work through some fears. But I did it and stood proudly kilted.

It works guys.

FREEDOM!

Ron

[bubba]

Y'know, for a nation founded on freedom the US has become over regulated and so terribly conformist. Employers today can declare no smoking by employees even away from work on their own time and have the right to fire anyone who smokes regardless of where and when they light up. Offices are gradually getting away from office casual dress and some are beginning to enforce stricter dress codes. Even on the production floor more companies are starting to require work uniforms. Will kilts be accepted (safety requirements aside)? I doubt it, in fact I expect they'll be prohibited in the workplace in due course.A few service companies may embrace them for the "different" public image, but in general they'll never be accepted as work attire. The fact is, as jobs (especially decent paying jobs) become more scarce employers will become more restrictive. The last thing the corporate world wants is individuals. Now, for a devious tactic. Put your normal work clothes in a gym bag and wear your kilt. Get to work at the very last minute and just get busy. If someone raises hell about the kilt just tell em you were at a breakfast of some Scottish heritage group and you didn't have time to change, but you will as soon as you get an imperative project taken care of. If nobody objects just leave the gym bag under your desk. Sneaky? Of course, but worth a try.

[Riverkilt]

Hey SB,

This is pure manipulation...perhaps your company would be more open to kilts if you found yourself a kilt in your company's colors (if they have any) and you called it corporate loyalty...or a great marketing idea...

Ron