A question for our Irish kiltie brothers

[macwilkin]

While modern Irish tartans were designed by Scottish mills, that's not to say definitively that historically the Irish didn't wear tartan.

Splitting hairs here, but in reference to the Ulster tartan, since its age is estimated at around the time of the beginning of the Ulster plantation, and evidence states that the trews were actually made in Scotland, It's probably safe to say that a Scot wore these tartan trews. Remember that in general, Ulster-Scots did not intermingle wi' their "wild" Irish neighbours.

T.

[Panache]

If this isn't too off topic,

Regarding saffron kilts PioBear wrote:

... they adopted the kilt, making it distinctively Irish by the traditional color of the léine. .. the most common and widely recognized is the solid colored saffron kilt as worn by Bernard FitzPatrick and Pierce O’Mahoney while campaigning for home rule in Parliament in the 1880’s, by Douglas Hyde, the first President of Ireland in 1938, and by the pipers of the Irish Defense Forces and the Royal Irish Regiment today...

Why is saffron distinctly Irish? As an American I have been raised to attribute green to Ireland (The Emerald Isle). So I was curious if their historic / religious significance to saffron.

Cheers

Panache

[Ayin McFye]

Sorry if i got a bit defensive before, it truly doesn't bother me that the Scottish invented the kilt or if the Arabians invented it 5000 years ago. I just think it's weird that i'm being asked to justify why I think the kilt has some Irish connection to my heritage, when i feel that it clearly does. I will fully agree that the kilt is more widely spread in Scotland more than anywhere else and is very much a part of their culture. It's just that when someone suggests that a simple answer such as "pulling the wool over the unkilted peoples eyes" is acceptable doesn't make much sense. I am not trying to deceive anyone by wearing an Irish Tartan. I am trying to be proud of my family line.

Like i said before i am Scottish as well, and could just as easily get away with wearing a MacKenzie tartan. My grandmother was born and raised in Scotland. I just don't know that side of my family as well.

I am truly loving this discussion and I do not with to offend anyone either. I love that we can discuss these things without name bashing or anything of the sort. I have actually learned quite a few things from this Thread alone, which i think is awesome. Cheers to all of you!

[flairball]

Ayin, You actually gave me a thought out intelligent answer. Thank you. Your ancestors creating the Riley tartan is quite a connection. The fact that they were kilt wearer too is quite a connection as well. Kilt wearers in Ireland weren't too common. You must have a strong family.

Please post a swatch of the Riley tartan. I've been unable to find it. A sur-name search directed me to the Tara tartan, which is quite handsome. Is this the same?

[Ayin McFye]

Ayin, You actually gave me a thought out intelligent answer. Thank you. Your ancestors creating the Riley tartan is quite a connection. The fact that they were kilt wearer too is quite a connection as well. Kilt wearers in Ireland weren't too common. You must have a strong family.

Please post a swatch of the Riley tartan. I've been unable to find it. A sur-name search directed me to the Tara tartan, which is quite handsome. Is this the same?

I thank you for that, and I do apologize if I came off too defensive. Here is a swatch of the Riley Family Tartan that I found. I hadn't seen the Tara Tartan before, so i just looked it up for a quick look. I plan to go back and read more on it, is it the same as the Murphy tartan?

[Monkey@Arms]

If this isn't too off topic,

Regarding saffron kilts PioBear wrote:



Why is saffron distinctly Irish? As an American I have been raised to attribute green to Ireland (The Emerald Isle). So I was curious if their historic / religious significance to saffron.

Cheers

Panache

Hey Panache,

A traditional clothing dye thought to have been used in ancient Ireland. See http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/irish/saffron.htm

Best regards,

Jake

[McClef]

I found the last few paragraphs of Matt's article very interesting regarding how tartan "traditions", even within Scotland, developed.

"People assumed this (clan tartans) was a traditional practice, and they were more inclined to change history to suit their views than to change their views to suit history."

There is indeed a danger that this will lead some people, often with commercial motives, to read things into history that are not really there.

But that is, and should be no bar to, future developments. Just as tartans continue to develop and proliferate, so the kilt has broken out of its origins as a belted plaid in the Highlands of Scotland to have a wider Celtic and masculine appeal.

[Graywolf]

Obviously in this day and age every group needs a symbol that is easily identifiable, that people connect to that group, and that stands out. For all Celts, this is the kilt. Whether Scots, Irish, Welsh, or Breton. As one of the largest, most dynamic, important and almost forgotten peoples in history - we Celts need an identifying symbol which can be used to distinguish us from others; to represent our heritage; and to unite us. That symbol is the kilt!!

[Troy]

Obviously in this day and age every group needs a symbol that is easily identifiable, that people connect to that group, and that stands out. For all Celts, this is the kilt. Whether Scots, Irish, Welsh, or Breton.

Without wanting to throw this thread off-topic by moving away from discussing the Irish connection with kilts, I would respectfully add the Cornish to this list.

Although there is evidence to suggest that there was a kilt-like garment worn in Cornwall in the early 16th Century (some figures carved into the ends of church pews in Altarnun), it would not be sensible suggest that there is an unbroken tradition of kilt wearing in Cornwall.

The year 1903 marked what could arguably be called the first 'modern' appearance of the Cornish kilt: at the Celtic Congress in that year, the Cornish delegate, a "wode-blue" kilt as a symbol of Cornwall's "Celticness". Other Cornishmen picked up on the idea began wearing kilts in solid black, which became recognised as the colour for Cornish kilts (in the same way that, for example, red is the Welsh colour).

Sixty years later, the Cornish bard, E E Morton-Nance registered the sett of the Cornish National tartan, the colours of which have great significance in Cornish history (I won't go into all that here - there is plenty of information available on this Worldy Widey Webby thing!).

"Cornish" kilts are becoming more and more common, both within Cornwall and amongst those of Cornish descent all over the world, and are seen as a symbol of Cornwall's "Celticness", and, indeed, its historical and cultural separateness from England.


Regards,

Troy

[Peter C.]

I lived in Scotland as a child and the only kilts I saw were worn by the local boy scout pipe band. I started wearing a kilt in a British military pipe band. I am English. I have worn my kilt and played my pipes at Burns night dinners and New Years eve parties with Scottish, Irish and English attending and I have often been the only one wearing a kilt. I was also one of the few who had no family claim to a tartan. THE SCOTTS DIDN`T MIND! In fact they loved it.

The USA has its own tartans, so has Canada. So why not Ireland? When a tartan is formed for a clan or region, kilts made from it become a sort of national dress.

I have never seen the Irish people living in England wearing kilts, unless they were in the military or a pipe band. Even when I was wearing my kilt, my Irish friends never mentioned Irish kilts. They would celebrate their culture by having a pint and a sing-song and exchanging tales with friends. But they were close to home.

When you are thousands of miles and possibly a few generations away from that culture, being able to wear some sort of national dress must make you feel closer to that culture. I think that is reason enough for the Irish to wear a kilt to celebrate their culture.

As I said before, the Scotts don`t mind, they love weaving the cloth and selling you the kilts.

I don`t know how you tell a Cornish man, as people have been moving to and from Cornwall for centuries. In fact if you check the DNA of anyone indiginous to the British Isles, you will probably find links to every country in the group, as they have been mingling for centuries.

Peter