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13th February 09, 12:09 PM
#1
 Originally Posted by svc40bt
I
A related question, as I know little of heraldry. Would one be guilty of anything other than poor taste and disrespect of tradition if they were to wear a plain circlet cap badge or use another's arms in the US? I gather that there are some criminal or civil penalties for doing so in Scotland? Please note that I have no intentions of doing so, in fact I own neither bonnet nor badge, but am just curious if there is any protection for heraldic items from other nations in the US.
No, just poor taste and a total disregard of tradition. You might get an earful from someone about this breach; other than that, you won't be hauled off to HM Gaol!
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13th February 09, 03:26 PM
#2
 Originally Posted by JSFMACLJR
No, just poor taste and a total disregard of tradition. You might get an earful from someone about this breach; other than that, you won't be hauled off to HM Gaol!
So, how about in the UK?
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13th February 09, 07:35 PM
#3
 Originally Posted by svc40bt
I would be curious what kilts thescot wears this badge with? If for instance with the Leatherneck tartan, one might expect it to be USMC related;
most people can not recognize any tartan but their own-- they honestly wouldn't know the difference between Leatherneck and Lamont. Those who know something of heraldry would see the badge and think "armiger", without regard for the clan/tartan connection.
 Originally Posted by sc40bt
...if with a clan tartan then I would take your point, though I would hope any gentleman who had possible exception to it would take the time to discern that it was in fact no way clan related (other than US Marines being a rather clannish group  ) and thus that no disrepect was intended.
Some might inquire, but the vast majority would not. I think most people would arch an eyebrow, and shrug. A few might say, "ooh", and that would be about it.
 Originally Posted by sc40bt
A related question, as I know little of heraldry. Would one be guilty of anything other than poor taste and disrespect of tradition if they were to wear a plain circlet cap badge or use another's arms in the US? I gather that there are some criminal or civil penalties for doing so in Scotland? Please note that I have no intentions of doing so, in fact I own neither bonnet nor badge, but am just curious if there is any protection for heraldic items from other nations in the US.
In the USA the use of another person's arms would probably be the legal equivalent of putting a Mercedes Benz star on a kit car, although it would be up to the aggrieved armiger to seek redress through the civil courts. The armiger might have recourse through the criminal courts as he could conceivably claim "identity theft", but I think that would be a bit of a reach.
As the Scottish courts have no jurisdiction in the USA, I doubt someone passing themselves off as an armiger could expect a call from the Procurtor Fiscal of the Court of the Lord Lyon. As an aside, in Scotland foreign armigers, unless resident in Scotland, are exempt for the jurisdiction of Lyon Court. Once they take up residence then they are expected to register their arms and follow Scots law as it appertains to the use of heraldry.
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10th February 09, 07:38 AM
#4
Hey there, cousin!
Thanks for your input on my original problem...you are correct - I think it was the size that perhaps threw me off!
I think both of your badges are very nice! MacArthurs ROCK!!
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13th February 09, 01:03 AM
#5
In my opinion, any kind of round pin/clasp with a one-and-a-half to two inch diameter would work for a non-clan badge.
If designing a new one, I would avoid anything resembling a feather sticking out from the perimeter. Some badges may include one to three feathers, depending upon the person's rank within the clan (one for a gentleman/armiger, two for a chief/"chieftan", and three for the clan chief). This document may be of some help in the description of a clan crest badge and how to wear it, particularly sections 5& 6 (pp 3-4): http://www.scotarmigers.net/pdfs/info-leaflet-2.pdf
I also wouldn't do a design with a plain circlet with a figure in the center without having a registered coat of arms. The figure would be the crest from the coat of arms (the part that appears on top of the helmet, above the shield). Whether you have a feather with it or not, a plain circlet badge (with a figure in the center) indicates you're an armiger (someone with a coat of arms). The strap-and-buckle style, which is most common, indicates you're a member of the clan (or the clan society). Some people might take umbrage at the audacity of wearing a circlet without having a duly granted and recorded coat of arms. Me, I don't pay much attention unless a person's trying to pass themselves off as something they obviously aren't.
Also, cap badges are traditionally in one metal (I've seen silver, pewter, brass, etc.) and not enamelled or cloisonne. That doesn't mean it can't be, just that it'll stand out and you may get grilled for it.
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13th February 09, 01:15 AM
#6
And what exactly constitutes a circlet?
I don't see how a strap and buckle could be used in this case because there is no clan, and no chiefe.
I tried to ask my inner curmudgeon before posting, but he sprayed me with the garden hose…
Yes, I have squirrels in my brain…
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13th February 09, 02:07 AM
#7
 Originally Posted by Ted Crocker
And what exactly constitutes a circlet?
I don't see how a strap and buckle could be used in this case because there is no clan, and no chiefe.
Good morning Ted. I know that you are planning to make and wear your own badge and I can quite see that you have no wish to "tread on any toes" by doing the wrong thing and if I may say so, quite right too. As a starter, why not get hold of an Xmarks cap badge? In my humble opinion it is a handsome piece of kit and if I had not already got a badge I would happily wear the Xmarks one. Just thinking aloud,my friend.
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13th February 09, 02:19 AM
#8
 Originally Posted by Jock Scot
Good morning Ted. I know that you are planning to make and wear your own badge and I can quite see that you have no wish to "tread on any toes" by doing the wrong thing and if I may say so, quite right too. As a starter, why not get hold of an Xmarks cap badge? In my humble opinion it is a handsome piece of kit and if I had not already got a badge I would happily wear the Xmarks one. Just thinking aloud,my friend.
Thanks, Jock, I may do that. And you are very correct, I do not want to "tread on any toes" with this.
I will keep reading up on the subject.
Last edited by Bugbear; 13th February 09 at 02:25 AM.
I tried to ask my inner curmudgeon before posting, but he sprayed me with the garden hose…
Yes, I have squirrels in my brain…
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13th February 09, 06:04 AM
#9
 Originally Posted by Ted Crocker
And what exactly constitutes a circlet?
I don't see how a strap and buckle could be used in this case because there is no clan, and no chiefe.
Hi Ted,
A circlet is just that, a circle around the crest, as may be found in my crest badge:

Regards,
Sandford
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13th February 09, 09:04 AM
#10
Bonnet Jewelry
Mornin' Ted!
Clansman's badges are jewelry in the same way that a silver circlet set with agate or caringom and worn on the bonnet is jewelry. To be sure they have a familial significance, and are governed by rules concerning pattern and shape, but they are items of jewelry none the less.
Because this is X Marks the Scot, not X Marks the Sumpthenelz, I think it is reasonable (and laudable on your part) to play by the rules. That said, strictly speaking the rules only apply to Scots and Clanfolk. Those outside the tartan tent have a bit more latitude in "bonnet jewelry".
Whimsy is something all to often overlooked, and if things are done within the "spirit" of the rules then there is no reason why a fella can't have a bit of fun.
Lots of non-Scottish, non-clan affiliated individuals and organizations use the buckle and strap devise, usually associated with the clansman's badge, and there is no reason why you could not do the same. Your friends would know what you are doing, and if you pitched up at a highland games 99% of those attending would just assume it was a "clan badge" and let it go at that-- if anyone asked, and one or two might-- you fill them in and go on your merry way.
So, for my money, there is nothing wrong, inherently evil, immoral, or evening fattening, about the individual use of the "buckle and strap". I would, however, speak out against the use of a circlet surrounding a devise as that is a heraldic item unique to an armiger.
Anyhow, what were you thinking of doing?
Cheers!
Scott
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