Highlanders v. Lowlanders

[The Barry]

Puffer, you're a Douglas?

[Sir William]

I am of "LOWLAND SCOT" Heritage & also "Border Land Reiver" Think Sir James Douglas ( the Black Douglas)

Puffer

I'm an Elliot - another of the famous (or infamous) Border Reiving families.

As far as I can tell, the stories go that the Elliot tartan dates to when King George IV made his famous visit to Scotland and the Earl of Minto chose to wear it. As far I can determine the kilt was not worn by any Elliots prior to that august occasion - as Puffer noted, the Border people dressed like the English (or at least in the European fashion).

A recent announcement concerning our upcoming Clan Gathering is that we are to wear "all the tartan you can muster." Clearly the wearing of tartan, to include kilts, is now perfectly acceptable by the Border families, even if the tradition can't be traced much further back than the early 19th century.

[Tim Little]

Clearly the wearing of tartan, to include kilts, is now perfectly acceptable by the Border families, even if the tradition can't be traced much further back than the early 19th century.

Indeed! The Tartan Register even shows a couple of "reiver" tartans ("A" below), and the Little of Morton Rigg tartan ("B" below) is the official tartan of the Clan Little Society. All were registered within the last 15 years or so, it seems.

A:


B:

[puffer]

Puffer, you're a Douglas?

That Sir is a good ?? There are MANY who say that I can lay claim, to being a "Douglas", & others who say no. Here is a "thumbnail".

1.In ca 1620 John Hayden, a SCION of one of the "branches" of "The Haydens"-English, notified His "Family" that he was marrying a Scots Lass.They said NO WAY. If you do, we will "disinherit you!! WHY ?? Apparently she was not only a DOUGLAS, but, a "BLACK DOUGLAS"

2. Despite this, they married,, boarded as ship & came to Amer. in 1622.

3. Was he "disinherited" ?? Yes, but they & their prodigy ( my Mother's side ) "landed on their feet" According to "Family History" ( my Grandmother, who was the "last of "this" Hayden line & family historian) "Mary Douglas" (called respectively "the BLACK DOUGLAS" was the Matriarch.

4.As you can observe, my "ties" to the "Douglas clan" is through the "FEMALE" & obviously "watered down after almost 400 years.

5. My personal position = I honor & I am Proud of my "ties" with the "Black Douglas" & I have "claimed" the "modern Tartan of a "BLACK DOUGLAS"



Puffer.

[Rob Wright]

Puffer, my Douglas connection is through my grandmother, Joyce (Douglas) Wright. Her line of Douglas' were from around Lanark and Douglas Dale (Black Douglas territory) and came over in the early 1700's.

Nothing wrong with a connection on the female side, at least you know who the mother's are! and their connections!

A cousin is a cousin is a cousin.

Rob

[puffer]

Puffer, my Douglas connection is through my grandmother, Joyce (Douglas) Wright. Her line of Douglas' were from around Lanark and Douglas Dale (Black Douglas territory) and came over in the early 1700's.

Nothing wrong with a connection on the female side, at least you know who the mother's are! and their connections!

A cousin is a cousin is a cousin.

Rob

PUFFER

[Malcolm MacWilliam]

So, help me out with the knowledge you folks have. Cause, since I have been doing the 18th century Highlander for 15 years (Jacobite, F and I and Rev Wars) we get the questions all the time. I continually try to make sure my lads and I are giving the correct info. Please correct or modify the info I have below so I can get a better timeline of "kilt history".

1. Kilts first appear in the 1400s, I believe "they" trace it to that time period because there is a gravestone someplace that shows a Highlander in a kilt.... this supposedly the earliest indication of kilt wearing? Any good research before that. AND, before that it was all English clothing??
2. So, kilts were worn and were the fashion in the Highlands (I had read anything north of the river Tay was Highland). Then, we have the '45. After Culloden, Kilts (Scottish dress) was outlawed....they quickly went out of fashion unless you could get awa' with it, so far north the English didn't care??
3. However, if you joined the military (42nd, 78th, 77th, etc.) you could wear your "native dress", the kilt. This was done to entice young Scots to join the British army?
4. George IV and Sir Walter Scott make it vogue to wear the kilt, 1820s??
5. Sobieski brothers (cousins to the BP Charlie) do their hoax with "the book" of tartans and clans begin to register clan tartans....is this the time that Lord Lyon gets involved?
6. Brings us to today!!

Sorry this is long, but I'd like good, hard info to be able to share with the folks ask the questions at reenactments. I feel we do a good job with this, but it can always be better with XMarks info.

Your servant and MANY THANKS. Malcolm

[Chas]

Hi Malcolm,

Point 5 - This is what Wikipedia has to say: The claims by two nineteenth century charlatans, Charles and John Allen alias John Sobieski Stuart and Charles Edward Stuart, that their father Thomas Allen was a legitimate son of Charles and Louise, are without foundation.

Regards

Chas

[ixoyedeg]

Malcolm,

Though I am new to the forum and to kilt wearing, I have looked into it a little and it seems that going back many centuries the lowlanders tended to be more easily connected both culturally and fashionably with the English, while the Highlanders were more heavily tied to their Celtic or Gaelic roots, both culturally and fashionably. Though the kilt, which originally was not much more than a large blanket wrapped around the person, may be somewhat new (1400s is earlier than I had heard of before, my previous early timing was late 1500s) the rest of the dress has perhaps always been considered more primitive to the English, and thus indicative of poverty, as has been mentioned earlier in the thread.

I have even heard it suggested that the lowlanders were not of the same Gaelic descendency as were the Highlanders, though I am not certain of that. A much closer connection seems to exist historically with the Highlanders and the Irish, and the Lowlanders and the English, and thus the fashions were also connected.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I have even heard it suggested that the lowlanders were not of the same Gaelic descendency as were the Highlanders, though I am not certain of that. A much closer connection seems to exist historically with the Highlanders and the Irish, and the Lowlanders and the English, and thus the fashions were also connected.

Broadly speaking that's correct; however, the Irish dressed (as did the lowlands Scots and the English) in the "European fashion" whereas the Highlanders wore the kilt. There were numerous reasons for this, chief of which would seem to be that the Irish were more prosperous, and could afford to wear clothes "cut from cloth". I believe it was Red Hugh O'Donnell who, in the 16th century, ordered a suit of clothes from a tailor in Glasgow, something few in the highlands of Scotland could have dreamed of doing.