Wearing a PC in the Daytime??

[McClef]

John Smeaton, the Glasgow Airport hero, received his Queen's Gallantry Medal from Her Majesty the Queen wearing a PC.

I did not see one word of criticism about his attire being inappropriate for the time of day.

[thescot]

What Matt Newsome said!

Alright, as usual I am late to the party, but I can't help myself. I just gotta . . .

The kilt police are here.

Few people these days--at least in the US--have the foggiest notion of what is proper for dress. A tux is considered "dressy" and therefore to be worn any time of the day or night. Nothing, in my not so humble opinion, screams boor like a tux at noon. A few decades back, some saw the royals getting married in a fancy wedding and decided that they should try to emulate the "fanciness." Then they saw a movie with Cary Grant in a tux and decided that a tux = well dressed.

The royals and Cary knew the rules and had advisers. We didn't.

Never mind that Cary Grant looked like a million bucks in a potato sack and he only wore a tux in the evening. And once the tux rental people found out they could get the boors to pay out big bucks for a tux at 1:00, well.. . it was on!

(OK, Jimbo, take a deep breath and take your meds. )

I know--clothes really don't make the man. But the fact is, we all have our dress codes. Younger folks these days have a dress code that requires jeans, tees, and wrinkles. And since they've been trained to purchase overpriced, poorly made clothes that shrink and don't fit, that's what's cool. Just as we wore bell bottoms and other tacky garments in the 60s and 70s, shouting our individuality and independence while dressing just exactly alike! Everyone has dress code rules.

Fact is--I finally got here--a PC is intended for evening wear--generally after 5:00. During the day an argyl is appropriate, not a PC--or a tux--or a doublet!

That's the conservative view. If you're 18 or 20 and want to wear a PC or a doublet or a tux during the day, no one will care. You're young, be crazy if you want. It's what youth is all about.

If you're 45 or 50, then you'll look a bit out fo place. If you don't have an argyl, then wear a sweater, or a vest, or a shirt and tie, or a polo shirt. But don't fancy yourself well-dressed just because you own a PC. It's really just a little out of place in the daytime--even for the prime minister or whoever.

Now, I'll go vack to the home. The attendants are looking for me.

[McMurdo]

Jock I can not help but agree with you, to my mind, and this is my experience, being properly dressed for Black or White Tie has absolutely nothing to do with geography. Black Tie Highland wear should be the same the world over, and it should not be seen before 6PM those are the conventions. It should not matter where in the world the original poster is, it is not proper to wear Black tie attire during the day, notwithstanding the fact that conventions are changing.

I also find it interesting that a simple question like this one can degrade into yet another traditional vs non conformist thread. The original poster simply wanted a traditionalist view on wearing a PC during the day, if you are a non conformist why bother answering it?

[DWFII]

Jock I can not help but agree with you, to my mind, and this is my experience, being properly dressed for Black or White Tie has absolutely nothing to do with geography. Black Tie Highland wear should be the same the world over, and it should not be seen before 6PM those are the conventions. It should not matter where in the world the original poster is, it is not proper to wear Black tie attire during the day, notwithstanding the fact that conventions are changing.

I also find it interesting that a simple question like this one can degrade into yet another traditional vs non conformist thread. The original poster simply wanted a traditionalist view on wearing a PC during the day, if you are a non conformist why bother answering it?

I agree with all of this, Glen.

To my way of looking at it, it is really of no consequence that some portions of American society disdain...or are woefully ignorant of...formal wear conventions. They're free to disregard such conventions (or wallow in their ignorance) as they please.

But!...that doesn't change the fact that formal wear conventions do exist and that if one is even thinking of wearing black tie, then it is the better part of wisdom to abide by black tie rules. As you say, "Black Tie Highland wear should be the same the world over."

Asking the question is the first step in getting it right...ignoring the answer puts one right back where they started.

As for the second part of your remark...what I find interesting is that even in a sub-forum that is ostensibly focused on Traditional Highland Attire, somehow the "non-conformist" point of view creeps in. I can understand (and even to some degree applaud at least the spirit) the broad and eclectic mix of opinions elsewhere on Xmarks. But in this context, it almost seems deliberately provocative, in my opinion. I mean I have never even been tempted to jump in and offer my, admittedly narrow(er) views in the "Contemporary and Non-Traditional" sub-forum. I don't even open that section, to tell the truth.

[Panache]

It strikes me Jock that 'traditional" is a poor word to convey the style of highland wear you and others advocate.

"Traditional" can mean a great kilt (very old tradition)

"Traditional": can mean a PC and white hose (very modern tradition)

I think we need a new word.

A way to define the style of highland wear that flourished between World War I and World War II.

I can think of no better description than "Classic"

"Classic" is not old fashioned, yet it is not modern.

"Classic" is timeless

"Classic" never goes out of style (Think for a minute of Humphrey Boggart in his trench coat in Casablanca, Sean Connery in Goldfinger, and Cary Grant in...well anything. They looked darn good then, and they would look darn good today! )

I think that if we can make a small shift in our thinking here on XMTS we would end this silly problem.

Question: Can I wear white hose with my Prince Charlie Coatee?

Jock: Well you can, people do nowadays. However the classic look is to wear diced or argyll hose. It just is the way that i have always done it and it always looks right.

What say you Jock?

ith:

Cheers

Jamie

[Jock Scot]

It strikes me Jock that 'traditional" is a poor word to convey the style of highland wear you and others advocate.

"Traditional" can mean a great kilt (very old tradition)

"Traditional": can mean a PC and white hose (very modern tradition)

I think we need a new word.

A way to define the style of highland wear that flourished between World War I and World War II.

I can think of no better description than "Classic"

"Classic" is not old fashioned, yet it is not modern.

"Classic" is timeless

"Classic" never goes out of style (Think for a minute of Humphrey Boggart in his trench coat in Casablanca, Sean Connery in Goldfinger, and Cary Grant in...well anything. They looked darn good then, and they would look darn good today! )

I think that if we can make a small shift in our thinking here on XMTS we would end this silly problem.

Question: Can I wear white hose with my Prince Charlie Coatee?

Jock: Well you can, people do nowadays. However the classic look is to wear diced or argyll hose. It just is the way that i have always done it and it always looks right.

What say you Jock?

ith:

Cheers

Jamie

I would like to think that is more or less my style of answering that sort of question. I may have strayed on occasion though! The trouble arises when someone chips in with the "you can't tell me what to wear,I am a ----- and no one tells me what and when I can wear-----------!"Well sorry, I can if I choose to(I am not making a big deal of this!Honest!) its my country's traditions that people are meddling with. Unwittingly, maybe,I grant you.

[Panache]

I would like to think that is more or less my style of answering that sort of question. I may have strayed on occasion though! The trouble arises when someone chips in with the "you can't tell me what to wear,I am a ----- and no one tells me what and when I can wear-----------!"Well sorry, I can if I choose to(I am not making a big deal of this!Honest!) its my country's traditions that people are meddling with. Unwittingly, maybe,I grant you.

I do think that we need a separate forum for "classic" highland attire.

The Traditional kilt forum should be more or less about traditional kilts.

That is rather easy to regulate. When we start talking about style then a clear division between historical, classic, and modern ones with their own specific spot on XMTS would be useful.

Alan follows the conventions of the modern formal style.

You obviously are devoted to the classic one

Hamish happily glides through them all

Everyone looks good

As always Jock, I am very grateful for the information you and the others contribute. I like knowing the conventions. I may not always follow them (bucket hat) but I sure as heck want to make sure that when I do it is by choice.

Cheers

Jamie

[Alan H]

Just to step back a bit....My intent was not to write "I'll wear what I want and all you people who have differing opinions can just XYZ"...but rather to say "There are many examples of people, even in Scotland, who wear the Prince Charlie coatee during the day, and even with white hose."

I actually tried to put some effort into not being confrontational. I may not have succeeded.

...and with that I think I will bow out of the discussion!

[Jock Scot]

Just to step back a bit....My intent was not to write "I'll wear what I want and all you people who have differing opinions can just XYZ"...but rather to say "There are many examples of people, even in Scotland, who wear the Prince Charlie coatee during the day, and even with white hose."

I actually tried to put some effort into not being confrontational. I may not have succeeded.

...and with that I think I will bow out of the discussion!

Actually Alan, I was not getting at you specifically! I do apologise if I gave that impression. I was thinking of the war cry that leaps from these threads all to often and not from your pen. You have your views and if I may say so, I respect them very much. Yes I am sure that a lot of this blurring of convention is due to the hire firms going for the "common denominator" look,but that does not make that look right, or, dare I say, correct. Might I also add that there must always be room for a spot of individual "flair" too, to liven up ones attire on occasion.

[DWFII]

Jamie,

I am not trying to horn in on your response to Jock, and I don't want to take this too far afield, but following your advice, I thought I would offer this, perhaps overlooked, perspective on white hose.

I wear white sock with boots, I wear white socks with athletic shoes. In both cases, I tend to associate them with activities that require I change them regularly (or in the case of the boots, the socks and their state of cleanliness are hidden from view ). Now that's just me but I think most of American society tends to make somewhat the same associations.

If, for no other reason than I don't want to associate my kilt with a locker room, especially when dressing up a little, it is my opinion that white kilt hose are a little garish.

Beyond that, I think that the reason why white hose are so popular is because the kilt hire folks can cheaply keep a large stock of white hose and they don't have to make a decision for a less-than-certain customer about what colour of hose to wear with a kilt.

What I'm getting at is that white hose is a "convention" promoted by rental firms. To the extent that we buy into that notion, we cheapen the whole look of the kilt...in my opinion. And the extent to which we permit a kilt hire mentality to be an acceptable source of convention...or something to emulate...is simply deplorable, in my further opinion.

Your mileage may vary...