A Definition of the Term, T R A D I T I O N A L

[DWFII]

I don't think it is productive to define "traditional" in a singular way...meaning we have to start with some definiton that we can all agree on. Again, the Oxford English Dictionary seems a standard to me.

And I would call attention to the phrase that defines "traditional" as being passed from one generation to the next. In that context, there is no chronological cut-off point. No arbitrary time frame when a style or implementation passes into historical obscurity. Only historical obscurity itself can impose that limit.

I, for one, will always regard the four yard box pleated kilt as traditional highland attire. I will always see the square bottomed notched lapel vest as traditional. And I'll add the TOS and the 18th century style buckle shoes, as well.

I believe that, given the evidence, even the flat cap could be included but I won't advocate for it.

[MacKay71]

Thank you all for all the good info. I am learning a great deal here.

[BoldHighlander]

Excellent discussion gentlemen!

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I think another thing to consider when we are discussing "traditional" vs. "historical" is the overall outfit.

As Rathdown stated, a four yard box pleated kilt worn with a Crimean War jacket is "historical" as it becomes part of a recreation of an historic outfit. The same kilt worn with a Prince Charlie jacket is "traditional" because it is part of a contemporary evening wear ensemble.

For another example, consider this sporran:

This is an eighteenth century sporran (the cantle is, no doubt the leather has been replaced at some point). As such, it is an historical piece of Highland wear.

This is the outfit it is being worn with, however:

(Sir Malcolm MacGregor, chief of the clan, with his wife Lady Fiona MacGregor, at the Stone Mountain Highland Games last year). This is not an historical outfit. Sir Malcolm is not participating in a reenactment. He is dressed in contemporary daywear. His sporran is simply part of the overall outfit, and is being worn in a "traditional" fashion.

Many of the sporrans I own are modelled after historic styles. I frequently wear four yard box pleated kilts made in an historic style of pleating. I have a Victorian-era style waistcoat I frequently wear for formal wear. I've also worn a nineteenth century replica shirt, collar, and cravat for formal functions. Yet I wear each of these things as part of contemporary Highland dress daywear or eveningwear, with no attempt at historical reenactment. In other words, I am not trying to recreate the look of a particular era with these clothing items. Rather, I am bringing these older styles up-to-date by wearing them with contemporary dress.

Highland fashion allows for a lot of historical "throw backs" in your style. But it's the outfit as a whole, in my opinion, that determines whether you are dressing historically or traditionally.

[DWFII]

In other words, I am not trying to recreate the look of a particular era with these clothing items. Rather, I am bringing these older styles up-to-date by wearing them with contemporary dress.

Highland fashion allows for a lot of historical "throw backs" in your style. But it's the outfit as a whole, in my opinion, that determines whether you are dressing historically or traditionally.

Matt,

I thought this was very cogent. Not surprisingly, I agree entirely.Thinking about it, this approach leaves a considerable amount of leeway for individual looks and eccentricities, without straying so far from Tradition as to distort the whole concept of Traditional Highland Attire.

For example, I like my P-39 battledress blouse and TOS, particularly in cool weather, although some may consider it dated.

Similarly with a flatcap (not advocating...just saying) particularly the older styles that were fairly soft and made of tweed. They look a little like a Tam pulled well forward.

[Phil]

(Sir Malcolm MacGregor, chief of the clan, with his wife Lady Fiona MacGregor, at the Stone Mountain Highland Games last year).

I really like this look - Lady MacGregor's I mean. Apart from being a bit of a beauty how good to see her in tartan with her jacket and hat trimming. An idea for the ladies perhaps to keep upsides with the men.

[dfmacliam]

If you forgive my injecture... But as I see it, it's like a business suit. Worn traditionally as a white collar business attire.. Over time the suit has changed, but it remains basically a suit. You have a single breast or a double breast, both traditional in the sense, yet different. You find suits on the market today, where they have a modern touch to them, and they may not be appropriate to the traditional business attire, but yet, it is a suit. There are no set rules written down, how one wears a suit, but there is a traditionally accepted style. One can wear it dressed up or down.
Suits are worn by peoples of all classes, and to their position/ or wealth is evident in the manner of uhh quality/ accessories. My mother talks about my grandfather going to the tailor to get his suits made, he was a blue collar man, so he would not dress as those of a white collar status, yet he wore a suit in the traditional manner.

The kilt is exactly the same thing, as Jock has pointed out, numerous times, it's an attire, to be worn as the situation dictates, by the blue collar, and white collar crowds alike. It has changed a bit over the years, but it's manner of dress is somewhat timeless.

My opinion, but that is how I see it.

[thescot]

I, too, like this forum for obvious reasons. As to the "definition" of traditional, I find that I am the final arbiter on the matter.

I would like to quote Justice Potter Stewart in regards to what I consider non-traditional attire:

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so.
But I know it when I see it, and the [style] involved in this case is not that."

Stewart was, of course, speaking of pronography in a film, and I merely replaced motion picture with the word, style.

For me, a good visual reference would be the photos from the early 1900s compared to Jock Scot's photo of himself asking about Victorian sensibilites. Note that there is almost no discernable difference other than shade of color in the kilt. (OK, maybe the fixed collar, but in the photo even that's hard to see.)

As Matt pointed out, it's the overall ensemble that counts. So, if you want to know if it's traditional, just ask me, and I'll tell you.

[Nighthawk]

One question I have- did Victorian Highlanders working the field in their one and only kilt do it in formalwear? If not... then why is casual wear not acceptable as "traditional"? I can't see Angus MacFarmer wearing his Arylle when he was slaughtering his sheep- or am I mistaken that the Highlanders were so poor that they couldn't afford Victorian fineries to use as day to day wear? I've been reading this thread trying to see where the day to day wear of the traditional Highlander comes in, but it hasn't been mentioned. One thing we sometimes forget- and this is also from the perspective of someone involved in historical reenactment- is that the paintings and books and guidlines we go by for these things are all of people of higher society. Mr MacFarmer wouldn't have had his portrait painted, but that doesn't mean his more casual style didn't exist or is a less valid srtyle.

On the other hand, I do insist on dressing as the circumstances require- I will dress as others define tradition for things like weddings and Burns Suppers and such, so I do appreciate this forum and the information presented here- it will be very useful for those higher social occasions.

[Dall_Piobaire]

Just my two cents on this; it's not discussed because the topic of discussion is the kilted attire. Although I have read accounts of men working in forges, in kilts, and that is how the present day traditional kilt came to be, I am sure there were all sorts of attire, just as there is today.

These days we may wear a suit to a wedding, funeral, gathering and such, I am sure the same can be said of that time. I have also read tht the whole stylized "ideal" was a tradition started by the well to do, because of the Queen's fancy for all things Scottish.

My other quandry is and concerns all the portraits, and sketches. Sitting for a portrait in those days was a huge deal! wouldn't one trot out every bit of the finest stuff he had, to immortalize himself as a grand fop? Wouldn't sketches, and such, romantize and idealize, the "ideal" highland look. Like a fashion model today? But, who really dresses like that!

Brian's pics are excellent examples of reality, in a historical sense anyway!