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7th August 09, 01:10 PM
#1
 Originally Posted by Woodsheal
So, basically what you gents seem to be saying is that these portrait subjects used our common method - throwing the plaid out on the floor or ground and hand-pleating it - but were more careful about it? Not sure I'm buying that. I don't see how the precise, even pleating shown can be achieved that way.
What I think we perhaps see evidence of is "cheating" by the well-off, who probably did not spend 24 hours a day in their plaids like common clansmen did (unless on campaign). As mentioned previously, there are hints of belt-loops and draw-strings in the primary evidence, as well as servants' helping hands, as UC Guy brought up. I think these "upper crust" Highlanders were availing themselves of these or similar advantages in their desire to look fine!
As for these paintings themselves, I don't see much evidence of artistic license, except of course in the backgrounds. The details of weapons, uniforms and clothing, etc., are almost photographic....
I didn't so much mean artistic liscence as artistic interpretation. Give two artists the same apple, and you will get two different paintings of two different apples. As to the cheating by the well off- I won't argue with, but for, your assessment there. There was more than likely cheating and help going on. And no, my friend does not spend 24 hours a day in his either, of course. In fact, he only wear it a few times a year. But keeping it neatly pleated when it's not being worn has made natural creases in the tartan. This page has a picture of it unpleated and stretched out:
http://www.renscots.org/gallery.htm
Unfortunately this page has the only picture of him in his kilt...
http://www.renscots.org/clan.html
So annoyingly, you'll just have to trust me on the appearance of the pleats. I'll get a picture tomorrow at the Colorado Scottish Festival to show you.
"Two things are infinite- the universe, and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein.
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7th August 09, 01:16 PM
#2
I think Woodsheal has brought up an excellent observation, one that I pondered a few times myself. Somehow, I can't see someone laying on the ground and pleating a length of tartan, then pleating the aprons as well before belting it on.
However, I have heard of (and tried) the method of throwing the pleated plaid over a shoulder and then adjusting it. All I can say is that to make it work takes a lot of effort and perhaps those of old had practiced it enough to make it work. I have laid it on the floor of a British military wedge tent, and on the dew-wet grass, but after seeing the bogs of the highlands, I can't see as how they would have done the same. But then again, if they took it off to use as a blanket while sleeping, gathering it up in some rough pleats to put back on before wearing is perhaps reasonable.
I've also thought that perhaps the artists of the time have used some artistic licence in trying to show a what was considered a "primitive" garment. It doesn't take too much effort to visualize a length of cloth just gathered up and belted on when you see these paintings. Also, after they've been worn for several hours, especially if any physical effort has been involved, the plaid does begin to look a bit disheveled.
A good discussion and I'm enjoying the reasoned comments being offered.
Virginia Commissioner, Elliot Clan Society, USA
Adjutant, 1745 Appin Stewart Regiment
Scottish-American Military Society
US Marine (1970-1999)
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7th August 09, 02:01 PM
#3
I still hand-pleat my great kilt on my king-size bed; and, I can get it done and on within about 10 minutes. But, who's to say that some of the great kilts in the 1740s did not have the pleats sewn in? Maybe the common Highlander didn't, but it wouldn't surprise me if the gentry did. For a country to have invented so much in so little time, it doesn't come as a surprise to me that the Highlander could have thought of sewing in the pleats.
Last edited by Jack Daw; 7th August 09 at 02:07 PM.
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7th August 09, 02:28 PM
#4
Sewed in pleats
I sewed the pleats into my great kilt[1]. Thanks to Ohio summer weather I used as little fabric as I could get away with... I'm about 5 yards or so which gives me a handful of shallow pleats. Can't tell they are sewn in when its being worn.
[1] If I ever have to do another, I'm going to sew the pleats directly into/throw a braided belt. That just makes much more sense for a quick-wear in a hotel room.
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11th August 09, 10:58 PM
#5
Great photos Nighthawk, the pleats sure look crisp on your friends great kilt. Thanks for the photos.
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12th August 09, 11:18 AM
#6
 Originally Posted by McMurdo
Great photos Nighthawk, the pleats sure look crisp on your friends great kilt. Thanks for the photos.
Thanks! I've been told I have a good eye. I'm not sure I believe it, but I try. So anyways- Curtis keeps his great kilt pleated even when he's not wearing it. The pleats have picked up natural creases. I figure it works the same way as when I sit on my modern kilts and get new creases pressed into them from the weight of me bum. Similar process I would guess.
"Two things are infinite- the universe, and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein.
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14th August 09, 04:11 PM
#7
Would sewing in the pleats or attaching belt loops not take away from the versatility of the kilt if this was an item of clothing that could be used as a shelter, bag, etc.? I can see how gathering the pleats in a similar fashion on a daily basis would create natural creases/pleats in the wool (not to mention that I highly doubt they were washed all that often).
I tend to favor the thought that the paintings show more of a "staged" and formal wearing of the kilt than a representation of how the average Scot would have wrapped and worn it. My outdoor gear/garb certainly hangs and fits differently than a suit.
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14th August 09, 04:16 PM
#8
 Originally Posted by KiltedSwede
Would sewing in the pleats or attaching belt loops not take away from the versatility of the kilt if this was an item of clothing that could be used as a shelter, bag, etc.? I can see how gathering the pleats in a similar fashion on a daily basis would create natural creases/pleats in the wool (not to mention that I highly doubt they were washed all that often).
I tend to favor the thought that the paintings show more of a "staged" and formal wearing of the kilt than a representation of how the average Scot would have wrapped and worn it. My outdoor gear/garb certainly hangs and fits differently than a suit.
In the case of belt loops, I don't see where it would detract from the functionality at all. All you would have to do is remove the belt from the loops. Sewn in pleats, on the other hand, would change things a lot. I personally have a long plaid that I use to sleep under when at reenactments. That actually works really well, and is more versatile than a great kilt- wee kilt with a long plaid, I mean.
"Two things are infinite- the universe, and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein.
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14th August 09, 04:26 PM
#9
Without any period written descriptions of how the plaid was put on, we can only guess, make deductions from period images, and experiment.
But, in over 35 years of being involved in "living history," many are the examples I've seen of dubious "reenactorisms" assuming the role of historic facts and practices....
Brian
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." ~ Benjamin Franklin
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14th August 09, 04:54 PM
#10
 Originally Posted by Woodsheal
Without any period written descriptions of how the plaid was put on, we can only guess, make deductions from period images, and experiment...
That's why I love experimental archaeology. Reenactors may sometimes get things wrong, but a lot of information has been gleened from going out and doing.
Jay
Clan Rose - Constant and True
"I cut a stout blackthorn to banish ghosts and goblins; In a brand new pair of brogues to ramble o'er the bogs and frighten all the dogs " - D. K. Gavan
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