Kilts that aren't pleated?

[NewGuise]

What does the OED mean by petticoat in this context? I "knew" it to be a feminine garment.

Sorry. I should have noted that a "petticoat" ("petty" meaning secondary or subordinate as in "petty officer") was originally an undergarment for men or women. For men, early on, it was a padded garment, worn over the shirt but under a doublet. Later the term could mean "waistcoat."

But yes, the line between 'masculine' and 'feminine' garments is both thin and moveable, across culture and across time. Boys even in Victorian England, much as in Shakespeare's day, often wore clothing resembling a girl's dress until they were 6 or 7, after which they were "breeched."

[BrettH]

It seems to me, as I learn about these things, that pleats are a necessity in order to be categorized "kilt" in my head. It also seems that an apron of some width must also be part of the thing. Pleats all the way around make a (woman's) skirt.

On the other hand, Utilikilt has as part of their FAQ:

It is often suggested that Utilikilts* are not “real kilts.” This is 100% TRUE!

“Real Kilts” are defined as: “A knee-length skirt with deep pleats, usually of a tartan wool, worn as part of the dress for men in the Scottish Highlands.”

They define their garments as "manskirts" - a more general term that would include ANY unbifurcated garment designed to be worn by men. So kilts fall under this more broad definition, but as a subcategory. Modern PV or acrylic tartan kilts would be closely related but still not technically in that category, with utility kilts and the like being more distantly related.

Ultimately, the categorization will be determined by how loosely, or how traditionally, you define "kilt."

And after writing this, now I'm interested in why kilts do have that apron, where women's skirts might not.

[Heming]

Sorry. I should have noted that a "petticoat" ("petty" meaning secondary or subordinate as in "petty officer") was originally an undergarment for men or women. For men, early on, it was a padded garment, worn over the shirt but under a doublet. Later the term could mean "waistcoat."

But yes, the line between 'masculine' and 'feminine' garments is both thin and moveable, across culture and across time. Boys even in Victorian England, much as in Shakespeare's day, often wore clothing resembling a girl's dress until they were 6 or 7, after which they were "breeched."

Over here that was quite common well into the 1900's. Theres a famous picture of our late king Olav 5th as a child, wearing what would today be called a girl's dress. If I'm not mistaken, the pic is from 1906. Olav's Mother was Her Royal Highness the Princess Maud of Great Britain and Ireland, Queen of Norway, grand-daughter of Queen Victoria (and great-aunt to Queen Elisabeth II).

[vipermcgee]

I didn't know repeating a question asked by a trouser-wearer (though I am one by nature) would open this large can of worms. I have indeed initiated one of the great debates of modern masculine fashion! Not that it matters as such, but I am still lost in my search for an answer. Can we, as a virtual society, establish a standard definition of "kilt" by which all men's unbifurcated garments are judged? Would that be possible without insult to any of our members? I think not! But for myself, I believe MY definition will continue to require pleats to be a true "kilt".

Seriously, I am not all that concerned about a true answer. I just hope I am prepared with an answer next time I am asked this question, should that ever come to pass.

Robert

[sathor]

Would that be possible without insult to any of our members? I think not! But for myself, I believe MY definition will continue to require pleats to be a true "kilt".

I met someone once that believed that if the pleats were sewn in, it was a skirt and not a kilt.

[cessna152towser]

Pleats all the way around make a (woman's) skirt.

Yes, I'd agree pleats all the way around make a skirt but there are skirts for men available in Europe which are box pleated all round:-

Those of us who know about kilts would call this garment a manskirt but the average person on the street here in southern Scotland will see it as a kilt because it is worn by a male.

[BrettH]

Yes, I'd agree pleats all the way around make a skirt but there are skirts for men available in Europe which are box pleated all round:-

Those of us who know about kilts would call this garment a manskirt but the average person on the street here in southern Scotland will see it as a kilt because it is worn by a male.

There you go ruining my nice, neat categories. Nice-looking manskirt, though

[Old Hippie]

An interesting distinction just occurred to me. Feel free to shoot it down.

"Pleats" may not be the issue. Many women's skirts are pleated. I wonder if a "real" kilt (whatever that is ) could be characterised with deep pleats as opposed to pleats that are really quite shallow and only meant to give some visual interest to the garment.

Deep pleats allow for vigorous movement, such as running and leaping because they can open out as necessary.

Your turn...

[NewGuise]

It's worth noting, perhaps, that a "kilted skirt" is immediately understood to be pleated. But yes, there are pleats and there are ... pleats.

[blackbeard]

The topic of “what is a kilt" has been brought up many times before. Here are a few links.

This one starts on topic but after page two....?
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/s...ht=traditional

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/t...ht=traditional

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/t...ht=traditional