Recent Irish kilt question

[Jock Scot]

In a nutshell, to me the kilt came from the common Scoto-Irish leine.

Oh, and if you haven't picked it up after a year, the prime reason for wearing my kilt is political.

For the sake of harmony, I have vowed not to discuss the reasons why on this board.

Slainte

Bruce

Good lord, I had never even considered for a second, that the wearing of the kilt, these days, was a political act!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Good lord, I had never even considered for a second, that the wearing of the kilt, these days, was a political act!

I think it can be, but only if you rent out the apron for political signage.

[The Thing]

In a nutshell, to me the kilt came from the common Scoto-Irish leine.

Oh, and if you haven't picked it up after a year, the prime reason for wearing my kilt is political.

For the sake of harmony, I have vowed not to discuss the reasons why on this board.

Slainte

Bruce

Here here, I have Scottish and Irish blood in me and have studied Irish history extensively for a long time. The Common pratice of the Irish Gael and his Highland Cousin wearing the same type of Clothing of almost a thousand years was no accident, these two sister cultures were more alike than Lowland-Highland Scot. However Scotland as a nation was allowed almost 400 hundred years to develop as an Indendent Nation free from English interference. Ireland during this period and especially after the Gaelic wars in Ulster was almost destroyed, along with many of the Irish traditions including the wearing of the Irish style of clothing the leine and Brat which became the Kilt thereafter.
If Ireland had of been left alone to develop and go down the natural path of the Gael who knows where it would have led today. It's culture was almost destroyed bannished to the pages of History. So yes the Kilt does share a place in Irish history as much as Scottish history, alas by another name or a belt or two missing.

[dfmacliam]

I have both Irish and Scots blood also, My Irish blood is the most recent while the Scots blood can be traced back the furtherest.. I am not going to pretend I know the kilt history, other than what I am learning here, concerning kilts.. I have learned, if I make a statement on what I assume is fact, I need to show proof..but aside from that.. I have learned a lot.

I am proud of the blood that runs through my viens.. both the Irish and the Scot.. I wear the kilt not for political reasons but to celebrate my heritage.. Yes, I live in the States.. But I am not from here... I am from the Isles, I grew up a foreigner, and to this day, it's pointed out to me I am not from here.. I'll wear my kilt and I'll walk a little taller because of what it means to me... James Claghorn sacrificed everything he believed in for the land he loved.. Scotland.. and his blood runs through my viens... As does his ancestors all the way back to Glegerne in 80AD. I wear my kilt with pride and I'll don my Saffron with pride also, because of what it represents...my mothers side. I am not trying to rewrite history... Just pay respect to My Family History, and while I am at it, I'll acknowledge I am not from here.. and I have no problem letting people see that for themselves.

I am only looking for guidance, in wearing my kilt properly, with respect, and by paying hommage to both sides of my family. I am not trying to make my own historical style.. But to wear accepted clothing and accessories, and still subtley acknowledge my Irish side and still respect the Scot side.. But hey.. It could be worse... At least I am not trying to include the Native American side in there....lol fringed bags with moccasins and a kilt..lol

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Here here, I have Scottish and Irish blood in me and have studied Irish history extensively for a long time. The Common pratice of the Irish Gael and his Highland Cousin wearing the same type of Clothing of almost a thousand years was no accident, these two sister cultures were more alike than Lowland-Highland Scot. However Scotland as a nation was allowed almost 400 hundred years to develop as an Indendent Nation free from English interference. Ireland during this period and especially after the Gaelic wars in Ulster was almost destroyed, along with many of the Irish traditions including the wearing of the Irish style of clothing the leine and Brat which became the Kilt thereafter.
If Ireland had of been left alone to develop and go down the natural path of the Gael who knows where it would have led today. It's culture was almost destroyed bannished to the pages of History. So yes the Kilt does share a place in Irish history as much as Scottish history, alas by another name or a belt or two missing.

While I can appreciate the emotion behind you sentiments, as someone who worked for several years in one of the departments of the Minister for Arts, Culture, Gaeltacht and the Islands, I would have to take mild exception to your comments concerning what you choose to characterize as "400 years of English interference", and how that somehow prevented the Irish from developing the kilt.

What might be characterized as "the Highland Scots" did indeed come from Ireland-- the North East portion of the Island to be exact. The people inhabiting this least populous corner of Ireland were, in their own time, regarded as "different" than the other tribal people in Ireland, and it is thought that they may have been the remnant of the original inhabitants of the island, pushed back by successive waves of incoming people.

Be that as it may, the Scots came from a fairly defined and somewhat isolated group of people, not from the Irish population as a whole. They brought with them the traditions of that group of people, not an amalgam of traditions drawn from the length and breadth of the island. So, to suggest that had the course of Irish history been different the "Irish" would have evolved into a kilt wearing people is to make a leap of logic that is not wholly warranted.

It begs the question, "Why?"

And the only answer that can be given, or so it seems to me, is one of attempting to justify the present day fascination with kilts and tartans by the Irish diaspora. I think this is merely a manifestation of a desire to have a "national costume" where none exists. The simple reason for this is that the attire of the Irish people followed the natural evolution of European dress, as did all of the British Isles, save for one poor, tiny corner of Scotland. That the Highland kilt achieved its place as the "national costume" of Scotland is down solely to its having been romanticized throughout the whole of the 19th century, primarily due to the military exploits of a few Highland regiments. I am of the certain opinion that, if the Scottish regiments had been forced into trousers in 1770, the kilt, as we know it, would never have achieved anything like the prominence that it enjoys today.

That said, there is no reason whatsoever to make up excuses (or projections of quasi, what if, history) to justify wearing a kilt made up in an "Irish" tartan. If someone feels that the only way they can project a positive image of their Irish heritage and cultural traditions is by borrowing the Scottish kilt, that's fine by me. All I ask is that one refrains from trying to give their "Irish kilt" an historical or cultural pedigree that just isn't there.

[HarborSpringsPiper]

hey.. It could be worse... At least I am not trying to include the Native American side in there....lol fringed bags with moccasins and a kilt..lol

Uhh, a lot more historically accurate than you might think. People debate the accuracy of Stuart Reids's "18th Century Highlanders", part of Osprey's Men at Arms series, however, I believe Tim Todish's Sketchbooks covering Highlanders and Rangers in North America during the 18th century are generally accepted as quite accurate and depict how they began to incorporate local 'Nish clothing into their kit. Fringe and mocassins became part of their practical adaptation to the American frontier, at least for Highland and other Ranger units. Regimental units, not so much. I understand the Highlanders and Native Americans largely felt a close affinity from the start, possibly as attested to in your described lineage.

[Stratherrick]

This is turning into a really interesting, civilised thread.

Keep it up, gentelmen and ladies.

Slainte

Bruce

[Phil]

I have to declare an interest here in that I am half Irish, was actually born in the place and still have many living relatives there as well as here in Scotland and the rest of the UK.
I note that a few contributers tell us they have "Irish blood" and that is, no doubt, the reason they feel a strong affinity to the country and its people and traditions. They should not, however, let this blind themselves to the true facts of the situation, namely that kilt-wearing is not, and never has been a facet of Irish custom. It is true, as MOR has so eloquently stated, that people from the north-east of Ireland (along with Viking settlers I might add) settled the western seaboard of Scotland from Galloway northwards, extending the kingdom of Dal Riata. The two communities on either side of the North Channel between Ireland and Scotland maintain strong family connections right up to the present day (I am just one of many examples) and in past times it was common for Scots gallowglasses to fight as mercenaries in Ireland. Despite these close connections, however, and the sight of kilted Scots over for a battle or two, kilt-wearing was never adopted by the native Irish and, to this day, the only kilts you will see there are in pipe bands, some Irish soldiers and (only very recently indeed) at the occasional wedding. I have never seen a kilt worn outwith such occasions and anyone wearing one would immediately be assumed by the locals as being Scottish.
It is best to learn the true facts and, preferably, have some personal experience of the situation on the ground before jumping to a conclusion which suits ones heart rather than ones head. This should not, however, debar anyone from wearing a kilt wherever they feel their true identity lies but they should not try to manipulate history to suit their own aspirations.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I have to declare an interest here in that I am half Irish, was actually born in the place and still have many living relatives there as well as here in Scotland and the rest of the UK.
I note that a few contributers tell us they have "Irish blood" and that is, no doubt, the reason they feel a strong affinity to the country and its people and traditions. They should not, however, let this blind themselves to the true facts of the situation, namely that kilt-wearing is not, and never has been a facet of Irish custom. It is true, as MOR has so eloquently stated, that people from the north-east of Ireland (along with Viking settlers I might add) settled the western seaboard of Scotland from Galloway northwards, extending the kingdom of Dal Riata. The two communities on either side of the North Channel between Ireland and Scotland maintain strong family connections right up to the present day (I am just one of many examples) and in past times it was common for Scots gallowglasses to fight as mercenaries in Ireland. Despite these close connections, however, and the sight of kilted Scots over for a battle or two, kilt-wearing was never adopted by the native Irish and, to this day, the only kilts you will see there are in pipe bands, some Irish soldiers and (only very recently indeed) at the occasional wedding. I have never seen a kilt worn outwith such occasions and anyone wearing one would immediately be assumed by the locals as being Scottish.
It is best to learn the true facts and, preferably, have some personal experience of the situation on the ground before jumping to a conclusion which suits ones heart rather than ones head. This should not, however, debar anyone from wearing a kilt wherever they feel their true identity lies but they should not try to manipulate history to suit their own aspirations.

Well said, indeed.

[Stratherrick]

My statement regarding the leine notwithstanding, I'd just like to concur that on this side of the pond, if you're seen in a kilt, folks assume you're Scots.

Slainte

Bruce