Ponderings of an ancient Scot.

[Kid Cossack]

Jock:

I'm conflicted. On the one hand, I feel the tie of blood, of history, and of tradition, binding me to my forefathers (and foremothers!) in Scotland, among other places. When people see me in a kilt and ask if I'm Scottish, I respond, "In part, and far enough back." That is, I am descended from Scots (in part). On the other hand, I am an American, a Texan, a Houstonian, and in point of fact I'm not really Scottish.

For that matter, in the modern nation-state, with highly mobile populations, how do we even define Scottishness?

Increasingly I find myself most comfortable when wearing either a tweed kilt, or the USMC/Leatherneck tartan. While clan tartans honor who you were born, and district tartans honor where you were born, the Leatherneck is, in a way of speaking, a regimental tartan, honoring what you did and who you became.

I don't mean to offend anyone by saying this, and I don't pretend it's the only right way to look at it, or even if it's the right way for me to look at it---it's just how it seems to me.

[auld argonian]

Great discussion...only one part of this that I see as being kind of impractical.

How many tartans can anyone expect a weaver to make? There are thousands now....how can anybody cope with many more than that? A tartan for every State, city, village, occupation, organization...and we'd be looking at some very limited runs of material; maybe enough for two or three kilts.

Even with computerization of the equipment, this would amount to something like "printing on demand"..."tartan on demand"?

Best

AA

[Jock Scot]

Great discussion...only one part of this that I see as being kind of impractical.

How many tartans can anyone expect a weaver to make? There are thousands now....how can anybody cope with many more than that? A tartan for every State, city, village, occupation, organization...and we'd be looking at some very limited runs of material; maybe enough for two or three kilts.

Even with computerization of the equipment, this would amount to something like "printing on demand"..."tartan on demand"?

Best

AA

Gor blimey, there is always one that throws a spanner in the works!

Ok, how about, by some miracle, the rest of the world adopts the usual and frugal Scots mindset and only has one kilt?

[MacLowlife]

I know it has already been mentioned, but I think the distinction between 1) the tartan as a sign of affiliation and 2) wearing a tartan KILT should not be overlooked. If you wander around the world, or the worldwide web, you will see plenty of offerings in tartan specifically intended to signify affiliation that do not really have much to do with kilt wearing. (ribbons, bar napkins, shirts, trousers, dinner jackets, etc.) Obviously, people do buy those items and wear or use them specifically to show some connection, usually to a clan, but also to a district, county, branch of service, etc. Others just like the color.

Something that I have to remind myself of is that this site is for kilt wearers. We are already a special group, in whatever sense you choose to define "special". We have already cleaved to the kilt, which makes us different from a large number of people- in fact, we have not merely cleaved to the kilt, we have chosen to read and discuss kilt topics.

I will admit now that I also wear trousers from time to time ( sad to admit, more often than the Kilt), but I do not think I remember having visited a single trouser discussion site. I would imagine your own experience is at least similar, regardless of how often you wear p*nts. SO, we have to acknowledge the iconic aspects of the kilt. I expect those aspects will only be exaggerated over the coming years.

You don't have to be thin to wear lycra, as a trip to the seashore or the wholesale club will show you. More and more people are turning to knitted garments because they are cheaper to make and will "fit" more people. Lycra wearing in 2010, as opposed to 1910, for example, shows an exponential increase. When those theoretical people Jock has conjured up get onto the bus ( STILL no Jet Paks, sorry...) their kilts will be brushing up against a forest of lycra-clad legs, tummies and woefully unattractive backsides. If I am wrong, you are welcome to dig me up and sue me.

But, despite the subtle evolution of the outside world's mistaken choice of bifurcated dress, the kilt will continue to evoke tradition and Scotland and individualism. And I predict that the majority of the people who chose to wear it will do so with an eye towards Scotland, even if it is sometimes a winking eye. Whether they hold to the Highlander's devotion to a single tartan or the Mod American's credo of Anything Goes remains to be seen, but chances are, they will still have to answer The Question from time to time.

[RockyR]

Great discussion...only one part of this that I see as being kind of impractical.

How many tartans can anyone expect a weaver to make? There are thousands now....how can anybody cope with many more than that? A tartan for every State, city, village, occupation, organization...and we'd be looking at some very limited runs of material; maybe enough for two or three kilts.

Even with computerization of the equipment, this would amount to something like "printing on demand"..."tartan on demand"?

Best

AA

We can expect them to produce enough tartans as is financially viable for them. Think of it this way... why would every mill produce Black Watch if every other mill does it? B/c there's apparently a market for it.

Directly to your point... there ARE thousands of registered tartans, but the major mills only produce a couple hundred (at MOST) in 13 - 16 oz wool.

If it can be shown that there's a market for US State Tartans, then maybe the mill(s) would produce them as stock.

Now there is a 'tartan on demand' service. It's the Single Width Cloth from Dalgleish and it's expensive b/c of the 'custom' nature of only weaving enough for 1 kilt. If MANY people got together to order or if the mill thought that there's a market for many people to order it, the State tartans could take off just like the Irish County tartans did.

The mill wants to stock tartans that appeal to a wide range of customers to maximize their potential customer base. This is why many small or obscure clan tartans aren't held as stock by any mill (or maybe by 1 mill, but not multiple mills), but larger clan tartans are held in stock in multiple color schemes (ancient, modern, muted, weathered) from multiple mills. It's also the reason for the upswing in mill created 'Universal Fashion Tartans' in the past 20 years. Do the US State Tartans have that kind of mass appeal? Does EVERY state tartan or do just SOME of them? That's the risk a mill would have to take, just like the Irish tartans.

It's a catch 22 to a degree... If the state tartans were cheaper ('standard' kilt price) and readily available (and viewable... not everyone knows they exist), then they would gain popularity. However, they won't be woven as stock until their popularity is established.

[Riverkilt]

I think you clearly see what's happening Jack....well, at least it fits for me.

My tartan kilts all have meaning for me - clans I'm descended from - clan district tartan - military/public safety tartans I wish to honor - and (gasp) Irish tartans to honor the bit of Irish lineage in each of my four grandparents.

The tartans I wear have meaning and pride for me.

I had some fashion tartans and some unaffiliated clan tartans I chose to "round out" my color choices when wearing a kilt. Found I just didn't wear them since they didn't have meaning. Sold them to folks for whom they had meaning.

Have thought about it, may be proven wrong, but I just don't think I'd wear a fashion tartan just because I liked the colors. But I can see other men doing so - particularly men who just want the comfort of a kilt who are not looking to their heritage.

I do enjoy watching the development of new tartans and have even purchased one that makes a political statement of sorts - the Antarctic tartan.

Looking at my wish list I find the expected clan tartans but also 2 state tartans, 2 province tartans, 2 Irish county tartans, 2 Welsh clan tartans, a German tartan, and the Dutch Friendship tartan. All honor my heritage.

So, hopefully the traditional reasons for wearing a kilt/tartan will continue strong as new tartans are developed to honor new "things."

[Jaggy thistle]

I feel that State and C ounty tartans are good in that people who cannot find a clan can wear a tartan .T hese tartans will in the course of time become these peoples (clan) tartan and will perhaps encourage more people to wear proper tartan kilts instead of these skirts with pockets ! I ,encourage my grandchildren to wear clan tartan which is a kidon anyway as I suspect no Douglas ever wore a kilt what the children will wear when grown up will be up to them but I hope they will stick to a tartan kilt

[kiltedwolfman]

For many wearing tartan holds a very special connection to history, and to some it is purely for looks and comfort. Although I suspect hold true for the latter as well. What perhaps is an important factor is that what was once just a length of patterned ( and in it's insipience non identifying ) wool has become a kind of phenomenon today. People who love kilts can all list an arm length list of reasons why they do, and be ready to defend each point on that list if challenged.

The barriers culturally and geographic borders have for the most part in a small way been wiped clear by kilt wearers, and regardless of type or reason they wear them I think it is a testiment to the symbology of the kilt.

I wear kilts for the heritage, for fashion and comfort, and for it's distictiveness. I have recently tossed around the idea of created my own modern family tartan since as the years progress our relation to Scotland grows thinner and thinner. There must certainly been a time when creating new tartans to represent new families was acceptable, so it follows that it should still be acceptable.

[MartinGrenoble]

To answer Jockscot's question:
> Now here is the crunch Question! "Is it now time for the non Scots to START to wear their own (non Scots) tartans?"

Some already do, but why should they limit themselves to one tartan?
There are French tartans, for example, but none of them are attractive enough to make me want to pay out the high price being asked.

There are some tartans so garish that I would not be seen dead in one (as they say). can you imagine being obliged to wear nothing but loud McWhatsisname all you life? Or having the choice of that or (gasp!) trousers?

Would Jockscot approve of the wearing of plain tartan-less kilts?

Martin

[Jock Scot]

To answer Jockscot's question:
> Now here is the crunch Question! "Is it now time for the non Scots to START to wear their own (non Scots) tartans?"

Some already do, but why should they limit themselves to one tartan?
There are French tartans, for example, but none of them are attractive enough to make me want to pay out the high price being asked.

There are some tartans so garish that I would not be seen dead in one (as they say). can you imagine being obliged to wear nothing but loud McWhatsisname all you life? Or having the choice of that or (gasp!) trousers?

Would Jockscot approve of the wearing of plain tartan-less kilts?

Martin

It is not for me to approve, or, disapprove of wearing "plain tartan-less kilts". My choice would be, that I would not wear one, others are at liberty to make their own choice.