Balanced treatment of Ulster history

[macwilkin]

Oh, I agree that learning about the balanced history of Ulster is a wonderful idea, but MOR, you make a poor assumption, too. Are you Irish or Scottish, or what? You play both sides it seems. In reference to Courtmount was that it seems like he was making this a spitting contest. What happened in Scotland, Ireland, or anywhere in the world, when it comes to subjugation, is despicable! No one had it worse than the other...it is all horrifying!

Learning about history is wonderful, but the comment about slavery was a bit much in my opinion, as was the comment about one side having it worse than the other. Again, it's all horrible. Unfortunately, though, it's part of our history.

No, Rathdown was raising a valid point, and he did so pretty objectively, from this historian's point-of-view. That's not to say that some historical events in Ireland were terrible, but the popular view of Irish history, especially among Irish-Americans, who have their own "spin" on things, very rarely usually looks at both sides of the issue. That's only natural, I suppose, when it comes to personal bias and the romanticization of the hatred of the English thanks to one-too-many pints o' Guiness and a stoundtrack by the Wolfe Tones, but the story is much more complicated than that.

For example, while we all know of the Great Famine in Ireland, few people know that the famine also hit the German states, which along with the political turmoil in 1848, caused thousands of Germans to immigrate to the United States at the same time the Irish were coming over. Both groups faced discrimination based on religious and ethnic backgrounds, yet the German struggle is not as well publicized as the Irish story in America.

And as the descendant of a number of Union soldiers, I tend to agree with the comment regarding the Federal army's role in ending slavery. If anything, I find it a bit troubling that you would be offended about someone mentioning the sacrifices of the "Boys in Blue" during the Civil War, especially given that we celebrated "their" holiday yesterday.

And btw, many of those "Billy Yanks" that you object to Courtmount mentioning were Irish immigrants.

T.

[denmcdough]

Sorry, but Memorial Day is just not about the "boys in blue," Mr. historian!

[macwilkin]

Sorry, but Memorial Day is just not about the "boys in blue," Mr. historian!

Do you know the history of Memorial Day, sir? Given the comment above, perhaps you might read this article:

http://www.suvcw.org/logan.htm

Or this snippet from the VA's web page:

Three years after the Civil War ended, on May 5, 1868, the head of an organization of Union veterans — the Grand Army of the Republic (GAR) — established Decoration Day as a time for the nation to decorate the graves of the war dead with flowers. Maj. Gen. John A. Logan declared that Decoration Day should be observed on May 30. It is believed that date was chosen because flowers would be in bloom all over the country.

-- http://www1.va.gov/opa/speceven/memday/history.asp

Memorial Day today honours all servicemen and women from all wars, but the origin of the holiday comes from the Civil War, and our observance comes directly from the Grand Army of the Republic, the veterans organization for the "Boys in Blue", who were inspired by Southern women decorating the graves of fallen soldiers, North & South, in local cemeteries. It was most certainly "their" holiday that they now share with the sons & daughters of the Republic that fell in the Argonne, at Pearl Harbor and Kasserine Pass, The Punchbowl, Ia Drang and Fallujah.

[McElmurry]

Thanks to all for re-focusing the topic and the great book recommendations. I have a lot of reading to do.

[Good Egg]

I appreciate that its not the area of history that you are interested in but if you are want a fairly balanced view on the background to the 'troubles' I would recommend: 'A Secret History of the IRA' by Ed Maloney.

[McElmurry]

I appreciate all of your recommendations particularly with the annotations indicating a little about the perspective of the author. I suspect in time I will begin to discern this for myself. I don’t mind alternating between the scholarly and the mainstream. While waiting for some of your recommended books to arrive I am reading “Wars of the Irish Kings” by David Willis McCullough. I am currently on the chapter that presents “The Cattle Raid of Cooley” as translated by byThomas Kinsella.

[macwilkin]

I appreciate all of your recommendations particularly with the annotations indicating a little about the perspective of the author. I suspect in time I will begin to discern this for myself. I don’t mind alternating between the scholarly and the mainstream. While waiting for some of your recommended books to arrive I am reading “Wars of the Irish Kings” by David Willis McCullough. I am currently on the chapter that presents “The Cattle Raid of Cooley” as translated by byThomas Kinsella.

In a similar vein, you might want to check out In Search of Ancient Ireland: The Origins of the Irish from Neolithic Times to the Coming of the English by Carmel McCaffery. It was also a PBS Documentary that is available on DVD.

T.

[The Thing]

Hows things,

Just thought I'd recommend two books dealing with the modern history of Northern Ireland. The first one "Lost Lives" deals with every victim of the troubles in Northern Ireland and their own personal stories, it is a fantastic read but very, very sad and the second book is "Bandit country" again a fantastically researched and written book.

I'd highly recommend both books as they are easily the two best books I've read on Northern Ireland's modern history.

Cheers, The Thing.

[Lallans]

Hows things,

Just thought I'd recommend two books dealing with the modern history of Northern Ireland. The first one "Lost Lives" deals with every victim of the troubles in Northern Ireland and their own personal stories, it is a fantastic read but very, very sad and the second book is "Bandit country" again a fantastically researched and written book.

I'd highly recommend both books as they are easily the two best books I've read on Northern Ireland's modern history.

Cheers, The Thing.

Thing, that first book must be one HELL of a big one. I'll look for both, thanks.

[Norman McCollum]

Thank you James. I will try and get a clopy.

Regards
Norman