The Craftsman versus the Industrial Complex

[Java]

Well, on the subjects that I'm cynical about, I come by that honestly too.
And I will confess, I've been beat up by the kilt police, and called a cross-dresser by so many people on so many forums that I loose track of who has and who hasn't. My appologies if I've confused you with someone else.

I seem to be having a conversation about how everything made with methods or materials invented since the industrial revolution is crap and that buying any of it somehow damages one's soul. I must admit that finding out that I'm having it someone I apparently have so much in common with baffles me somewhat. I believe our basic disagreement was the whole "gateway" thing. I believe that in many cases a $95 Amerikilt will lead to a $130 USA kilt, will lead to a $160 Alt.kilt, to a Freedom Kilt, and so on until it leads to a "real" kilt bought by someone who wouldn't have considered saving up and spending that kind of money to start. Wearing the less expensive kilts having caused him to change his monetary priorities.
I have a tendency to spend around $100 on a pair of dress shoes. They last me about a year. I buy them because as you say, a $30 pair that last 3 months is more expensive than a $100 pair that last 12 months. I'm sure a $500 pair would work out to be even less expensive in the long run, but one has to draw the line somewhere, and for shoes, I choose to draw it at $100. For a kilt, I have just bumped that line up from $100 to $150. Little by little, priorities change.....

Have Fun,
Tom

editted to add; Oh, and Rocky, I'm working, writing for tomorrow morning. So I'm inside on the computer anyway......

[Moski]

I'm not sure if I should be shocked or angry at what I'm having trouble Not calling an elitist attitude. I keep seeing the assertion that most of the products made since the industrial revolution are worthless and I'm too dumb to see it or that I am not qualified to discern what quality is. Nor am I able to appreciate quality as I've surrounded myself with worthless child labor knockoffs in my ignorance. The shoe example is outrageous in that, of all the people I know, only a very few attorneys come close to that price foe shoes. For the great majority of people that's not even in the realm of reasonableness. Its a wasteful extravagance. Then to nearly berate someone because their priorities preclude such an expense and slag them off for it is beyond the pale.

[DWFII]

And I will confess, I've been beat up by the kilt police....

The whole "kilt police" thing is bogus and simply a way to dismiss the opinions of people you've already decided to disagree with. Calling someone "kilt police" gets you off the hook of having to think about or respond to opinions that differ from your own. It's another one of those shortcuts (or should I say "efficiencies) that cut us off from other people--like calling someone a Nazi.

What's more the whole idea is so contrived...if there's is a kilt police, where is the enforcement?

If you can't stand someone disagreeing with you, or offering opinion you might not like, you probably ought to steer clear of forums in general.

and called a cross-dresser by so many people on so many forums that I loose track of who has and who hasn't..

All the more reason to respond to the words that are actually written and not your first (or uncertain) perception of the person or your hasty interpretation of what they mean.

And in passing...all things in comparison and in moderation. I don't know that everything made since the Industrial Revolution is crap. I was born well after and I'm making things. Boots, shoes, sgian dubhs sporrans, tools, wooden bowls, etc..

I do know that things made in a factory...or from a mentality that buys into all the priorities of a factory...reduce our sense of connection. The products themselves almost universally have a sterile quality about them that is devoid of authenticity. And how could they not be? It's all copies, clones and ticky-tacky.

Is it necessary? Only to the extent that it is so widespread that our economy depends upon it. Only to the extent that we welcome that sterility into our lives rather than resist it. Only to the extent that we defend it.

Do I buy factory made goods? yes. Do I buy cheap imports? Sometimes. But like wearing a flat cap, which I like and wear regularly or other "deviations" from Traditional Highland Dress...I don't defend it.

[tripleblessed]

I deleted a post on another thread after rereading and after rethinking it seems more fitting here, anyway. And maybe ties the off-topic to the topic.

DWFII and I have both spent many years working in physically demanding trades, long enough for us to become dinosaurs and our trades almost unrecognizable to those we learned from. We have learned the value of work done by known hands, and the dangers of assuming cookie-cutter techniques are equal to the ones we learned, and hands that earned a living wage and respect. Our perspective should count for something.

We here are the drivers of the evolution of the kilt, and the survival of the traditions. We must help find the ways those things can work together. There is a way. I may not know it any more than the next guy, but my faith is strong that it does exist, and can be found. If nobody stands up to say quality counts, DWFII is right, the next generation will not know it, and will not know to look for it. Computers and assembly lines can't do what we do. They can approximate some of it, but with different energetic results. My father and I split our working years among several trades. We were both good at all of them. I was said to be the best people had ever seen at certain aspects, but I would never claim the mastery DWFII has attained. I did, however, gain a profound respect for WORK. It's a great spiritual practice. It's good for the soul, and when approached that way imbues it's results with qualities not possible in robotic processes or sweatshops. To lose this would profoundly damage these traditions.

Not to be totally Luddite here, I find it astonishing that we have come to a point where a patient at risk in transplant situations can have a collection of his/her own cells made into a DNA soup to be used as ink in computer printers to PRINT an organ to replace a damaged one, and with one's own DNA, no rejection problems. These approaches have value as well.

Evolution will continue whether we participate or not. There has to be a way to continue to include master craftsmen.

[DWFII]

DWFII and I have both spent many years working in physically demanding trades, long enough for us to become dinosaurs and our trades almost unrecognizable to those we learned from. We have learned the value of work done by known hands, and the dangers of assuming cookie-cutter techniques are equal to the ones we learned, and hands that earned a living wage and respect. Our perspective should count for something.


Evolution will continue whether we participate or not. There has to be a way to continue to include master craftsmen.

Thanks TripleBlessed.

I was done with this off-topic digression...tried several times to let it go even as others seemed reluctant.

But I feel the need to respond to your comment.

I was watching "Lark Rise To Candleford" last night with my wife. An episode in which some of the first agricultural machines are being introduced to a community that has lived on the land for generations. And, of course the inevitable conflict between "modernity" and "Tradition."

It's fiction, of course and a well-worn subject for novels essays, poem, movies. I suppose that's suppose because no one knows what to do to resolve the conflict. Or if they do, no one wants the disruption in their personal lives that it would require.

And at end of the episode, I realized I just didn't belong here--XMarks. I don't fit into this community. (I probably don't fit into this century.) Undoubtedly my own fault--I don't speak the language...rely too much on dictionaries, literary conventions and despise the Twitter/Tweet/Twit syndrome that passes for communication in this brave new world.

No big deal.

I'd like to see the Scottish woolen mills survive without having to sell out to the Koreans or the Chinese or even the American. I'd like to see them survive without having to resort to poly-viscose or printing tartans. I'd like to see the skills that are unique to that industry passed on to another generation...and another...and another. A concept that has no value in this time and place.

I'd like to see the kilt remain a tribute to Scottish history and tradition and culture. To be something unique and wonderful in the world...and if that means that they are expensive enough that a man will only own one in his lifetime, why then all the more reason to treasure it.

I'd like to see the kilt remain an artifact that is made by people who care about what it represents (other than a profit, I mean), about what is embodied in every stitch just by virtue of the fact that a human being placed those stitches...deliberately, each and everyone...rather than how fast it was done or what machine did the work, how the efficiency has gone up with the elimination of another ten people and their jobs. "Look Ma! No hands!"

I hate the cookie cutter mendacity of mass production and I hate the disposability of people...of cultures, of traditions, of connection. I hate the way in which the "factory mentality" devalues human beings, their skills, lives and creativity. I hate the way the vast majority close their eyes to this aspect of contemporary society...don't know, don't want to know.

As TripleBlessed has suggested, I'm a dinosaur. I was born at the cusp of this brave new world--where such considerations are now so alien as to be almost incommunicable.

I'd like to see the kilt survive...some things, some parts of that old world ought to, are worth preserving as more than interesting museum exhibits. I look around...I look at history...and I don't see many, if any, examples to give me much hope or faith that it will.

Because you can't sell Talisker to Diageo and expect the old venerable distillation methods to survive for very long...probably less than a generation, if that. You can't watch Lochacarron being sold to Koreans and not get a sick feeling in your stomach.

The more water you add to a single malt the less you taste the whisky. The less whisky there is by volume. What's the point? I'll take mine neat...water by.

My last word....no big deal.

[English Bloke]

... I realized I just didn't belong here--XMarks. I don't fit into this community. (I probably don't fit into this century.) Undoubtedly my own fault--I don't speak the language...rely too much on dictionaries, literary conventions and despise the Twitter/Tweet/Twit syndrome that passes for communication in this brave new world. ...

If I may, I'd beg to disagree. (sigh! Not again he says.)

I've loved your recent posts on tradition against modernity. I value your opinions and have not tried to counter because I find it difficult to argue against what you say. In addition your arguments are considered, beautifully delivered and you remain civil at all times. I too can't be doing with twittery twaddle and txt spk.

You Sir have just as much place here as the rest of us. We may not agree on all points but where would be the fun in that eh?

Please stick around, I don't think the tables we sit at are THAT far apart and I'm sure we would enjoy each others company in the real world. Me in my Levi, you in your BD, although we'd be hard pressed to find a tipple to enjoy that's not wholly or partly owned by Diageo.

[Mike M.]

With respect to the manufacturing argument, I'd like to point out that high-end craftsmanship never goes out of style. Not among people familiar with it. There is the question of affordability...and the problem of a "negative snobbery" by people who lack the knowledge to appreciate top quality. You see it in the shooting sports all the time. But the appreciation is always there.

Now, back to the original question...I'd like to see more makers offering low-yardage kilts. The kilt pin holes sound like a brilliant and obvious idea. Heavyweight PV sounds good. Printed tartan? If you used a heavyweight base material, it might be a workable proposition. Wool isn't always the right fabric, I could see some of the modern wicking fabrics being useful for hot weather. Pockets? Feasible, but a bigger sporran makes more sense. That being said, people are carrying a lot more these days.

[Chirs]

Have you seen the movie Kinky Boots? There is one scene that addresses the question of quality in shoes that you raise. The main character manufactures high-quality brogues but the factory is in trouble. He goes to a seller and asks if they would take a quantity of the shoes. The seller shows him the shoes they're selling now and he complains "The bloke who buys these will be back in 3 months!" "Exactly" is the reply.

[DWFII]

Well, I wasn't going to post to this discussion any more...if only because it was so off topic in its previous incarnation and also because it seemed to be generating an inordinate amount of acrimony. Some of which, thankfully, seems to have mysteriously disappeared. Interesting and thought-provoking discussions always seem to bring out the worst in some folks.

But I have to thank blessed³ and EB for the support and for "getting it."

I would observe, in passing that "quality" is not about how long an item lasts in ordinary usage, although that's certainly part of it. Paper shoes will last years and years if never worn more than once a month and never off the carpet.

But again, that's not really the issue. The issue is "intent". Did the maker intend that the shoes last 20 years? Or is there an advantage to be gained by selling a new pair every 3 years? Did the maker intend that they would retain their fit and appearance throughout that 20 years...despite being handled/repaired by people who are not makers?

Because intent becomes focus--"Job One."

If Job One is to make money, there is a decision tree that flows from that focus. Every material, every technique will be examined and altered to suit that objective of making money.

Materials will be bought and cut regardless of quality. Regardless of surface flaws.

Techniques and procedures will be implemented that eliminate a skilled worker when a minimum wage, unskilled worker can be substituted. And/or workers laid off when a mindless machine can take their place.

The goal is profit and that means the lowest possible cost of production that will still capture the market.

When making shoes is Job One, the decisions are radically different and serve radically different ends. Best quality leather will be chosen. Warble holes and blems will be cut around and that section of the leather will be discarded or used where such flaws are not visible or critical. Under such a regimen technique is everything. Techniques that will provide the most secure, most long lasting results are de rigueur.

The goal is the best fitting, best looking, best wearing shoes that can be made.

And sometimes, and on some feet, and in some conditions, with the best intents, such shoes will not live up to the maker's expectations. Regular applications of barnyard acids in the face of lack of maintenance, or just outright neglect or even abuse, are not part of any maker's intent.

Quality is about intent. To be realized, it must be implemented with skill...and intent. Ourouboros.

And by comparison....everything is by comparison. You (a generic, universal "you") might have a pair of shoes that are of what I call poor quality. I call them poor quality because I know the intent. I know, intimately, what goes into each pair and what materials and techniques really are quality. And I make my comparisons based on real knowledge and experience, not just supposition. I have a privileged perspective in that regard.

My intent...in posting these remarks...is educational. And with no sense of self-congratulation, I would suggest that such is always a gift. That's certainly the way I regarded it when it was passed on to me.

PS (and on edit)...anyone who thinks that all this does not apply to kilts has not, I suspect, thought it through or thought very deeply about it.

[tripleblessed]

But I have to thank blessed³ and EB for the support and for "getting it."

But again, that's not really the issue. The issue is "intent". Did the maker intend that the shoes last 20 years? Or is there an advantage to be gained by selling a new pair every 3 years? Did the maker intend that they would retain their fit and appearance throughout that 20 years...despite being handled/repaired by people who are not makers?

Because intent becomes focus--"Job One.

"The issue is intent" is such a profound statement it should have its' own site. This is core of your existence, and the basis for becoming a human being. When one begins to understand this statement, joy begins to have a greater place at the table. Not that every moment will be a laugh riot, but joy will be present. Deep, primal, a foundation for examining self and the world, and what sustains you through hard times. Not food, certainly not TV or commercial entertainment. Joy.

DWFII, this is a conversation I've been having since the Nixon administration. Few get it. Fewer still will pursue it. The fortunate thing is that it doesn't require huge numbers to keep it alive. The reality is that struggle increases as the number of those understanding the concept decreases. The fewer the number, the greater the struggle for all on the planet. I keep mentioning the great amount of science related to this area of understanding, and some will note I offer no citation. Intent to find it will bring it to you as you can understand it. Intent is a major ingredient in the soup of relativity, and people and information will just begin crossing your path when you seek it.