Too Traditional?

[ThistleDown]

Henry, just for the sake of conversation, could you give an example of traditional Highland attire (as opposed to historical Highland attire) that crosses the line from acceptable to caricature?

Rathdown, could Sir Harry have overstepped traditionally acceptable into caricature in the following? Or not. If so, how?

[CMcG]

...
As far as the Lion Dance is concerned, it sounds to me as if the choreographer wanted a different interpretation of this dance than you were providing-- I doubt it had anything to do with your not being Chinese. Put another way, it was not so much a matter of clashing cultures as it was a difference in artistic vision.

The person who took issue to my adherence to tradition was actually just a coordinator at the event. My kung fu club was invited to perform a lion dance and they sent me to do the job. At the dress rehearsal this coordinator told me the dance was boring and asked me to do more fancy moves. I countered that this style was more traditional, she said I wasn't traditional (i.e. so why would I be doing a traditional lion dance?), and I ended the discussion by saying as a representative of my kung fu club, it wasn't up to me to change their routine; the "choreographer" (that word isn't entirely accurate when describing folk dance) was my teacher at the kung club.

Allow me to explain. There are two main types of lion dance around here: traditional Cantonese style, which is a para-liturgical exorcism/blessing ritual; and the international style, which combines the more acrobatic movements of northern lion dancing with the costuming of the Cantonese style. Many clubs do a combination of both by adding a few showy jumps into a traditional lion dance.

I'd be happy to discuss lion dance some more, but perhaps PM would be more appropriate.

Bringing this back to kilts, if this coordinator's comment had nothing to do with me being a foreigner and more to do with entertainment value, why would she tell me that I -- as a person -- am not traditional enough to do the traditional dance? I can only imagine that perhaps she thinks I'm too young to be traditional? Is there such a thing as too young to wear the kilt in the most traditional way?

I think I understand the concept of too traditional, at least in areas where there is not a tradition...

This is definitely part of what I've been thinking. Particularly where there is no deep rooted tradition of kilt-wearing, too traditional might unfortunately come off as being a costume.

Could part of it also be relative to the individual, rather than the society? That is to say, if one usually makes no effort to coordinate their colours or patterns; wears a lot of tweed, tartan, Argyle, and tattersal; always wears a necktie;and has a den full of taxidermy animals, etc., then even the most traditional, non matchy-matchy, daywear outfit (complete with eyes-in full-mask sporran) probably wouldn't look like too much.

[Panache]

In answer to the OP's question I do not think you can wear highland attire too traditionally. Jock Scot has made some excellent points but I can boil them down to this

The most important part of wearing traditional highland dress is simply wearing clothing that is appropriate to where you will be and what you will be doing.

If you are wearing an outfit or individual items that are not appropriate for the place and activity then you really aren't dressing traditionally. This simple rule applies to all fashion.

Cheers

Jamie

[Jock Scot]

There is another problem, one of perception. Now one way or another I have seen a few kilts and variations of style in my time and I know what looks right at a glance. Now I might be at the local shop buying a newspaper and Ian Mac----- might be in there too, dressed to the nines in his kilt attire, he will look completely out of place, overdressed call it what you will, where he is. He will look completely out of place walking through town, but he won't when he arrives at the local show to lead the band. I know and understand that he popped into the shop for a box of matches whilst on the way somewhere else, many a visitor won't.Wrong assumptions are often made by the unwary from studying pictures too.

I see many pictures here of members being ever so daring in breaking the traditional mould------so they think. In fact, on many occasions the traditionalists have been doing that for decades. I think the most common mistake that many new to kilt wearing make, is that they tend to over-dress. Wearing a fly plaid when its not necessary(is it ever, in civilian wear) is probably the most common, wearing a formal argyll when a tweed one is appropriate is another and wearing a tweed jacket where a pullover or shirt sleeves may have been a more sensible choice.

[CMcG]

...I see many pictures here of members being ever so daring in breaking the traditional mould------so they think. In fact, on many occasions the traditionalists have been doing that for decades. I think the most common mistake that many new to kilt wearing make, is that they tend to over-dress. Wearing a fly plaid when its not necessary(is it ever, in civilian wear) is probably the most common, wearing a formal argyll when a tweed one is appropriate is another and wearing a tweed jacket where a pullover or shirt sleeves may have been a more sensible choice.

Sage advice as always, Jock!

[Guinness>water]

I thought about this a lot when I first started wearing the kilt. I wore a baseball cap with my kilt because I thought a balmoral would look very out of place, especially on me(costume idea). After a while, I figured the kilt is so non traditional in the US that what the heck "if your gonna do it, do it all out".

So I dont think you can be too traditional.
Non traditional, maybe easyer to swallow for first time see'ers(think: Dropkick Murphy)?

[davidlpope]

A couple points:

1. Wearing formal attire to a non-formal event is not being "too-traditional", it's being ill-informed.
2. In my mind "historical attire" is not the same as "traditional attire". In other words, I consider a box-pleated kilt or a kingussie-pleated kilt historical but not "truly traditional". That being said, it's usually the accoutrements that one wears with a kilt that scream "traditional", "modern", or "clueless". Several of my friends have kingussie-pleated kilts and most folks they encounter never even notice the unique pleating style. They're great kilts, though, and I find them more comfortable due to the less fabric used in their construction.
3. Clothing should be adapted to the environment you're in. So, when it's a cool morning at Stone Mt., a tweed jacket and waistcoat feels nice. In 90 degree heat at Linville, I lose the jacket and tie and roll my shirt sleeves up.
4. American clothing, generally, has grown less formal and less traditional. By way of example, although t-shirts are generally worn now as outer garments, there are still some who hold to the traditional notion that they are underclothing and not suitable in public.


My personal preference is to try and wear the kilt the way that it is worn in its native environment, the Highlands of Scotland.

Here in the US that may clash with how it is typically worn. In many cases I think this clash is the result of misinformed and novice kiltwearers who base their notion of "what looks right" on highland outfitter brochures/websites and the examples they see at their local Highland Games.

When I show up at an evening event with bar buckle brogues, Argyle hose, and my Angora or full-mask badger sporran, I look different than those who surround me. I have a velvet doublet and bias-cut waistcoat on order, so when those arrive I will stick out like a sore thumb.

This was precisely the case at last year's Grandfather Mt. Patron's Reception. Almost everyone else was attired in ghillie brogues, white hose, fly plaids, rabbit fur sporrans, "historical-inspired" garments that looked like pirate vests, etc. Everyone, that is, except the Command Sergeant Major from the Black Watch (and a few commendable others) who was wearing bar buckle brogues, diced hose, and a hair sporran.

In my mind it's an issue of in-group/out-group behavior, being "in the know", if you will. It's not unique to kilted attire, I find the same phenomenon at work when I quail hunt. From time to time one of the guys that I normally hunt with will bring a guest. This normally means that the guest shows up in what they imagine to be "bird-hunting clothing", although it's not what the rest of us are wearing (which is normally more beat-up, non-descript, and basic). See this thread for a more thorough discussion:
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/s...70#post1028170


I guess I'm okay with looking out of place or "too-traditional", if that's what most people think...

[creagdhubh]

A couple points:

1. Wearing formal attire to a non-formal event is not being "too-traditional", it's being ill-informed.
2. In my mind "historical attire" is not the same as "traditional attire". In other words, I consider a box-pleated kilt or a kingussie-pleated kilt historical but not "truly traditional". That being said, it's usually the accoutrements that one wears with a kilt that scream "traditional", "modern", or "clueless". Several of my friends have kingussie-pleated kilts and most folks they encounter never even notice the unique pleating style. They're great kilts, though, and I find them more comfortable due to the less fabric used in their construction.
3. Clothing should be adapted to the environment you're in. So, when it's a cool morning at Stone Mt., a tweed jacket and waistcoat feels nice. In 90 degree heat at Linville, I lose the jacket and tie and roll my shirt sleeves up.
4. American clothing, generally, has grown less formal and less traditional. By way of example, although t-shirts are generally worn now as outer garments, there are still some who hold to the traditional notion that they are underclothing and not suitable in public.


My personal preference is to try and wear the kilt the way that it is worn in its native environment, the Highlands of Scotland.

Here in the US that may clash with how it is typically worn. In many cases I think this clash is the result of misinformed and novice kiltwearers who base their notion of "what looks right" on highland outfitter brochures/websites and the examples they see at their local Highland Games.

When I show up at an evening event with bar buckle brogues, Argyle hose, and my Angora or full-mask badger sporran, I look different than those who surround me. I have a velvet doublet and bias-cut waistcoat on order, so when those arrive I will stick out like a sore thumb.

This was precisely the case at last year's Grandfather Mt. Patron's Reception. Almost everyone else was attired in ghillie brogues, white hose, fly plaids, rabbit fur sporrans, "historical-inspired" garments that looked like pirate vests, etc. Everyone, that is, except the Command Sergeant Major from the Black Watch (and a few commendable others) who was wearing bar buckle brogues, diced hose, and a hair sporran.

In my mind it's an issue of in-group/out-group behavior, being "in the know", if you will. It's not unique to kilted attire, I find the same phenomenon at work when I quail hunt. From time to time one of the guys that I normally hunt with will bring a guest. This normally means that the guest shows up in what they imagine to be "bird-hunting clothing", although it's not what the rest of us are wearing (which is normally more beat-up, non-descript, and basic). See this thread for a more thorough discussion:
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/s...70#post1028170


I guess I'm okay with looking out of place or "too-traditional", if that's what most people think...

***

Lachlan Mackintosh and I have a lively chat at his house in Newtonmore, Inverness-shire, Scotland. Two examples of traditional Highland dress for a specific occassion; an informal luncheon just prior to the annual Clan Macpherson march, where the men of the clan, lead by our Chief, march to the Newtonmore Highland Games field and are welcomed by the Chieftain of the games.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

David, well put as always.

[creagdhubh]

Great photo featuring some of the Chiefs (to include my own, Sir William Alan Macpherson of Cluny and Blairgowrie, TD) of prominent clans that make up the great Clan Chattan Confederation. This particular photo was taken during their procession through Inverness during the re-signing of the Bond of Union festivities in 2009 - celebrating the Bond's 400th anniversary,

Rex, I know you were present at that glorious time, as I have seen many of the photos on the Clan Chattan website - I wish I could have been there!

Slainte mhath,