Origins of the kilt, is it Celtic or not?

**Dreadbelly** · 25th August 05, 02:19 PM

My native ancestors wore pleated, skirted, aproned garb before Christ was even born. I don't know nearly enough about that part of my culture, but I do know that.

A standard wrap as clothing was to restrictive. Only so much give when you hunker or move or hunt. Pleats were added to allow for spread.

One native american skirted design I looked at in the library just a little while ago was one big box pleat in the front, dead center, and another in the back. BIG box pleat. The extra fabric on the sides draped nicely and the folds of the pleats allowed for a great deal of movement, while the actual pleat it self was heavy enough to stay in place and offered from protection from scrub, cacti, and even slashing claws and fangs. (It was made from leather hide) The box pleats were sewn in at the top, and the skirt it self was tied by a draw string cord around the waist. It was really a clever design. If I could get one made, I would wear one.

Strangely enough, it looked a little bit like a Utilikilt, because of the wide single box pleat in the front as an apron.

**Dreadbelly** · 25th August 05, 03:04 PM

I am ashamed to show my chicken scratchings. Sorry, my RA does not allow for fine detail work. I hope this works well enough to give folk the general idea.

And, on a personal note, I could actually see this being converted with a little change to a tartan based garment, which would pay tribute to anybody with both Scots roots and Native Roots.

Edit. Not sure if drawing is accurate.

It's hard to explain, but there was stitching at the top of the box pleats. They went down a couple of inches. So the pleats don't really hang away from the body of the garment like I drew it. I only did that to try and show the placement of the box pleats. They looked as though they were stitched down. It was a very detailed portrait in a graphic history of Native American Garb. I don't know why I said beads. More like little conchos or decorative bits of metal or bone, and little leather loops that hooked over them to hold that side of the skirt together. As mentioned, there was some overlap, but hard to say how much. I didn't really show how long it was, but it came down to about the knee. In the portrait, some of the warriors wearing them, theirs was different. I don't know if it was intentional, or just the shape of the skin, but one side hung longer than the other, with one side mid knee and the other side hanging all the way down to mid calf. Decorative beadwork and stitched designs adorned the front pleat down the middle. The front pleat went almost from hip to hip, it was quite wide, but not completely side to side.

It looked quite comfortable and functional, and looked to be worn with some sort of leggings or something.

**Sir Robert** · 25th August 05, 03:24 PM

MAC's article is about 1650 to present.

We are looking for 500 AD to not later than 1600 AD, focus here.

Because we catch hell for our kilts, we try to be extra-super-tolerant of others who wish to wear the kilt. But please do not let your position blind you to the facts.

While an edged solid great kilt would have been worn by an Irish nobleman before 1200, and the Scoti were Irish, the phillabeg was never worn by an Irishman.

Now to confuse the issue the English drove a lot of Scots into Ireland about 1650. So even if you see a kilt in Ireland post 1650 it was likely on a Scotsman, especially in light of a similar anti-Irish dress proscription in 1200.

Now If you have a man from Northern Ireland wearing the kilt today, cool because he likely has ancestors from Scotland.

Some Catholic guy from the Irish Republic in a phillabeg talking about Pan-Celtic nonsence, no I don't buy it. I want to beleive it but there just ain't any evidence to back up the position.

**Woodsheal** · 25th August 05, 04:27 PM

The whole notion of the kilt being an ancient Celtic garment is just plain silly, historically spaeking. The ancient bare-legged Greeks and Romans considered the Celts barbarians, and the Celts' wearing of TROUSERS was considered a barbaric practice. However, the men of Caesar's legions operating in Gaul soon learned the practicality of the Celts' TROUSER wearing, and adopted that garment themselves.
Going about bare-legged became the practice among Celts living in the Scottish highlands due to the nature of the wet, boggy terrain, but let's face it! The true ancient garment of the Celts is TROUSERS...!

**Kilts_Knave** · 25th August 05, 04:48 PM