Women in Kilts?

[Jerry]

I've tried to be nice this time. I think, that the reason there are strong feelings on this topic, is that there is a deep set fear among a lot of us, that if women begin to generally adopt the kilt as a standard form of women's clothing, then those few of us who wear it will, indeed, in the eyes of non-kilt wearers, become "men wearing women's clothes", no matter what tradition says.

[McMurdo]

When I started wearing kilts regularly my mom took me aside and told me of her jouney to Canada from Scotland by boat. She wore a kilt for the entire trip, she never said that it was a kilted skirt, it was a kilt. I figure if its good enough for my mom, when she was in Scotland, than thats good enough for me.

[angel923]

If a woman wants to dress like a man it is her buisness.

I ask only one favor if you are asked let them know it is a man's garmet just to help those of us who have to fight the prejudices about men wearing the kilt for the kilt's sake.

[MacHummel]

I make little hip hugger kilts for the ladies and kilt skirts I make all of mine to strap up on the the right side no one has complained if if feels good wear it.

[Moosedog]

Just another viewpoint here. I have lurked on this site for years and have learned invaluable lessons about kilts and accessories, tailoring and fitting. I've even learned the "Hamish," without which a kilted gathering lacks a certain flair. Thanks for all your help! Now it's time for me to "come out of the closet."

I am a woman and I wear a kilt most every day. I cheerfully tell anyone who asks that it is indeed a man's garment. In fact, my own reservations were the largest hurdle to wearing one, as I was brought up to believe only men wore the traditional kilt, and that I was relegated to the sidelines, wearing my white dress with just a wispy sash of my clan's tartan pinned on. Sigh.

But now I revel in kilts. I love wearing them. I'm cut pretty straight up and down, so a Stillwater off the rack fits me passably. A "woman's" skirt makes me look like I am in drag! (laughing) So what do I choose? The most comfortable and flattering, of course.

I have also made kilts, both contemporary and traditional, for men and for women. Whoever wants to wear one happily gets my business. I've heard the argument that kilt-wearing women go against the stated mission of this forum...I'm not sure how my wearing a kilt keeps men from being able to wear them.

Thanks,
Moosedog

[Robin]

Cheers to you Moosedog!

[SnakeEyes]

Hmm, seems I may have opened a bigger can of worms than I was expecting.

[McMurdo]

Nice of you to come out of the closet Moosedog and

I've heard the argument that kilt-wearing women go against the stated mission of this forum...I'm not sure how my wearing a kilt keeps men from being able to wear them.

Thanks,
Moosedog

Very well said, your enjoying kilts in no way lessens my enjoyment of them, lets face it the more kilt ambassidors out there the better.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I think an important part of this whole discussion is what defines a kilt? I think everyone is in agreement that a kilt is a man's garment. But I think what really makes it a man's garment is that it is made for a man. Likewise, what makes a kilted skirt a skirt, as opposed to a kilt, is that it is made for a woman. As kilts are typically made to measure for the individual wearer, then this is not a problem (some of the less-expensive off the rack kilts being an exception).

A few comments:
Clovis, the styles of kilt you describe are completely outside the realm of "traditional Scottish kilt" and so a whole different sort of rules and conventions apply. Not that there is anything wrong with you wearing them, it's just that when people discuss women wearing "a man's kilt" they usually have in mind a traditional man's Scottish kilt.

Someone (I can't find who now) mentioned that his grandmother always spoke of wearing her "kilt." In my experience, I talk to a lot of older women who speak of wearing "kilts" either in their youth or currently. Inevitably what they describe is what we'd call a kilt-skirt or kilted skirt.

Which brings up a point -- what is the essential difference between a man's kilt and a lady's kilted skirt?

TYPICALLY (and I emphasize that word), a lady's kilted skirt is made from about 4 yards of light weight wool, machine stitched, and knife pleated to no particular pattern. It fastens on the left.

TYPICALLY, a man's kilt is made from heavier wool, 8 yards, hand stitched, and knife pleated to either sett or stripe. It fastens on the right.

But none of these rules are hard and fast. As Nanook mentioned, some lady's skirts are made to fasten on the right. This doesn't make them any less a lady's skirt.

What about fabric weight. Well, some men's kilts are made from light kilting weight. And who is to say a lady's skirt cannot be made from medium, or even heavy weight. I've made lady's skirts from 10, 11, 13, and 16 oz cloth.

And when I make them, I hand stitch them, just like I do a man's kilt. Who is to say a lady cannot have hand-stitched quality in her garment? And I always give the lady the option of knife or box pleating. And if she wants it pleated to the stripe, she can have it that way. Why not?

And what about yardage? Though a typical man's kilt today has 8 yards, it was not always so. 200 years ago a typical man's kilt only had 4 yards, and this is how I make my box pleated kilts today.

So if yardage, fabric weight, pleating style, and the rest don't really matter in the distinction between a man's kilt and a lady's tartan skirt, then what does?

Some suggest length. Certainly men have a much more narrow range of what is considered appropriate. A man's kilt is usually worn anywhere from mid-knee to an inch above the top of the kneecap. A lady's skirt, however, can run the gambit from full-length hostess skirt to an ultra short mini-kilt. But, it can also be knee length, just like a man's kilt.

So, what is the real difference, then? Let's say Joe calls me up and orders a four yard box pleated kilt in the MacDonald tartan, 13 oz weight, pleated to stripe. And then Jane calls up and wants me to make a knee length skirt for her, MacDonald tartan, 13 oz, with box pleats, to the stripe. Oh, and please make it close on the right.

What is the difference between these two garments? One thing and one thing only. Joe's will be made to his measurements, to fit his *male* body, and Jane's will be made to her measurements, to fit her *female* body. Joe's kilt won't be any less a kilt and Jane's skirt won't be any less a skirt.

Joe will probably wear his with a heavy leather belt, sporran, kilt hose, and boots. Jane might wear hers with a nice blouse, pantyhose, and pumps. And they will both probably look stunning!

Aye,
Matt

[Nanook]

Which brings up a point -- what is the essential difference between a man's kilt and a lady's kilted skirt?

I see men's and women's kilted garments in convergence.

High rise kilts (what I think of as the epitome of the "modern kilt") are, save among the military, almost as common as hen's teeth.

Between the "contemporary" kilt and kilted skirts, I think, the main differences (if there are any) are found among quality, workmanship and cost. The same is really the case with children's kilts (although my son got a "vintage" kilt made of the best heavyweight cloth to the absolute highest standards I've every seen in any kilt) and between the boys and girls versions of their kilted skirts (beyond the right/left closure my daughter's "kilts" tend to be made more economically using also elastic in the waistbands, less cloth and much less sewing). As men's kilts become more "fashion" (and less expected to be worn consistently for many years if not decades) and closets fill-- witness the shift in the entire men's clothing industry over the past 50 years towards more fashionable, disposable, casual items away from (robust and only slightly evolving) suits and hats--- the difference is becoming less clear (and consensus seems to support a view towards increased pressure to cheapen-down the kilt to become more accessible to a wider market).

Most of the less formal men's kilted garments such as the Kinloch-Anderson Breacan--- which I really do like--- are only in details (such as a bit more cloth and more pleats) to be distinguished from their kilted skirt. A man would probably wear them tighter and a women more loosely hanging from the hips but that's defined more by "how one might wear a garment" rather than the item itself. TFCK Howie seems to like to have (men's) kilts hang low on the hips while many of the girls in parochial schools wear their (kilted) uniforms (quite) tight (and hemmed a bit short so as to move up their thighs when the headmistress is not watching).

TYPICALLY (and I emphasize that word), a lady's kilted skirt is made from about 4 yards of light weight wool, machine stitched, and knife pleated to no particular pattern. It fastens on the left.

That's for cost reasons. Such skirts are much cheaper to make and cheaper to sell. Given the short fashion life cycles the only way to make a good profit is to set a high margin. Low prices and high margins don't yield much room for workmanship. The same can be said of cheap (glued and fused) men's suits that American men typically purchase and wear (again emphasize "TYPICAL" since some of the finest men's suits are not just sold in American but also made in America). Better quality wonen's skirts, however, do match their patterns.

Joe will probably wear his with a heavy leather belt, sporran, kilt hose, and boots. Jane might wear hers with a nice blouse, pantyhose, and pumps. And they will both probably look stunning!

The picture I posted above (from Kinloch Anderson) shows a women in a "nice blouse" that is quite popular for less formal "Highland dress". Its quite a (historical) (gentle)man's style. My little "princess" calls her ivory lace Jabot "her prince shirt".

pantyhose,

Or knee high socks.

and pumps. And they will both probably look stunning!

And pumps are little more than an evolved version of a court shoe--- again a style that is historically quite male (and still worn at Old Bailey). I think I wrote of these elsewhere on this site.

Another person asked about the line that separates men's from women's clothing. I think the closer one looks at women's fashion the more one finds male styles and elements and much of men's casual clothing has re-imported and integrated much from woman's wear. The difference, I think, is in the wearer and gender identification. A woman can be quite "sexy" and feminine in a male garment (as Marlene Dietrich illustrated over 75 years ago in "Der Blaue Engel"/"The Blue Angel") just as a man can be androgynous to outright effeminate in blue jeans or another masculine in a "dress" (a style of man's clothing found in the Middle East, Asia and the far East). Traditionally one had the concept of "local custom" but in an urbanized, multi-ethnic global media village--- in Tehran, for instance, under the shrouds are a mass of "Angelina Jolies" fresh from plastic surgery--- we increasingly can't talk of local custom. In the end its less, I think, about what styles we wear but how.