Wearing a PC in the Daytime??

[Alan H]

No worries, Jock.....carry on!

A question for you....If someone in, say Nevada in the USA, or perhaps in Argentina wears a kilt, and by this I mean a tartan kilt of at least more-or-less traditional form and construction, is he obligated in some moral/ethical manner to observe long-standing Scottish tradition on what's worn with the kilt? Please note that I'm not asking if it would be "smart" or "wise" of him to be acquainted with these traditions, but whether he has an ethical obligation to know and hew to these traditions.

(the notion of "long-standing" being a tough one to pin down, but let's say "long-standing" means through the current wearers parents generation. This means that if Pablo in Argentina wears a kilt, does he have an ethical duty to observe the kilt-wearing traditions current during his grandfathers and/or fathers generation? ..)

The corollary would be, of course, if someone in Scotland chose to wear, say, traditional Indian garments, or Japanese clothing, would they have a moral obligation to understand and adhere to traditional conventions on how they are worn.

[Jock Scot]

No worries, Jock.....carry on!

A question for you....If someone in, say Nevada in the USA, or perhaps in Argentina wears a kilt, and by this I mean a tartan kilt of at least more-or-less traditional form and construction, is he obligated in some moral/ethical manner to observe long-standing Scottish tradition on what's worn with the kilt? Please note that I'm not asking if it would be "smart" or "wise" of him to be acquainted with these traditions, but whether he has an ethical obligation to know and hew to these traditions.

(the notion of "long-standing" being a tough one to pin down, but let's say "long-standing" means through the current wearers parents generation. This means that if Pablo in Argentina wears a kilt, does he have an ethical duty to observe the kilt-wearing traditions current during his grandfathers and/or fathers generation? ..)

The corollary would be, of course, if someone in Scotland chose to wear, say, traditional Indian garments, or Japanese clothing, would they have a moral obligation to understand and adhere to traditional conventions on how they are worn.

Gosh is this thread still going? Yes Alan, I do expect a person from Argentina, for example, to observe the Scots kilt wearing traditions as best they can, out of courtesy. Particularly if they have taken the trouble to ask! I quite understand if things are adapted a wee tad for weather conditions, or, as I say, they are doing the best they can in the circumstances.

If I were to dress up in traditional Indian,or, Japanese,for example, attire I most certainly would give those nations the courtesy they deserve and wear their national costume to the best of my ability.I would expect everyone and anyone to do the same. What I most certainly would not do, is ask an Indian how to wear a turban,for example, get his advice and then tell him how I think it should be done!

[Alan H]

I keep re-writing the above post and I know I'm getting it wrong, because Jock, as you have pointed out over and over, the "tradtitions" which you hold dear are not something of your grandfathers generation, they are what people of your acquaintance RIGHT NOW, adhere to.... though your grandfather might have pretty well approved of them.

[JelicoCat]

Soooooo..... Avoid wearing PC jacket during the daylight hours, unless special circumstances apply. Yeah?

[Panache]

Soooooo..... Avoid wearing PC jacket during the daylight hours, unless special circumstances apply. Yeah?

Exactly

Cheers

Jamie

[DWFII]

Maybe I can respond to both Alan and Jamie simultaneously...at least their posts, taken together, generated a train of thought that goes something like this...

I don't think that anyone has a moral or ethical obligation to wear a traditional tartan kilt in a specific manner. For me, such a proposition/question doesn't have any meaning.

Rather, being a "traditionalist" is accepting that there are "conventions"...conventions based on history and respect for the people who paid a price, sometimes in blood, to create the world we live in. I'm not being sentimental or engaging in high flying rhetoric here. I simply mean that wearing a kilt meant something to people...means something, even now, to people like Jock. Being a "Traditionalist" is like being a scientist, or an historian...it is acknowledging that there is a right way and a...not-so-right way. Underlying principles that make all that comes after, tenable.

The "acknowledgment" itself is what lies at the heart of the matter. If nothing else, an acknowledgment that the history, the traditions, and yes, even the conventions have value to people.

That in itself is the essence of "tolerance" and "respect"...far more so than the laissez fair "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" abandonment of all adult responsibility.

And from that understanding, just naturally, flows the impulse to "act accordingly" to wear the kilt with the proper accessories. But that's voluntary it is not an ethical or moral mandate.

White hose may, in some circles be an undisputed fashion. I wouldn't deny it...and I don't have enough foresight to say one way or the other if it's just a rather gauche fad (like ruche ties?) or something that will become part of the integral history of the kilt.

But considering the origins of white hose as an acceptable convention, I still think it is deplorable...just as, and I agree with you, Jamie...I think wearing shorts down around your ankles is deplorable. It may be fashion, but it is a fashion the whole purpose of which is to shock and confront. It is a "flaunting"...and as understandable as that may be in adolescents, it is offensive to everyone who believes in decorum and civil behaviour and universal respect. Maybe only mildly offensive and not something to get obviously upset about, but still offensive.

And, in my opinion, it is a a failure...of self-respect, if nothing else...to pretend otherwise.

That doesn't mean that we need to confront everyone and every mistake. But on one hand I think it is incumbent upon us who do value such concepts as respect and tradition to do "due diligence," so to speak. To make it our business to know and to defer to those that know. And to hold fast to, and preserve the attitudes and conventions and traditions, that we respect. Not to yield to the temptation to water them down for no good reason...or for simple expediency--as in the case of white hose.

And on the other hand, speaking only for myself, I would feel the impulse, at least, to point out to someone wearing a set of jump wings upside down, that it was disrespectful. I suspect, Jock and many others often suppress that impulse out of courtesy and a generosity of spirit.

And on the third hand, I wouldn't feel comfortable parsing my answer (for fear of offending someone's delicate sensibilities) if they asked me what I thought of wearing a kilt with the pleats in front. The act of asking implies you are sincerely looking for answers. The act of asking another person implies you want their opinion.

Just as a forum entitled "Traditional Kilts" implies a bias towards tradition and convention and "Classic" Highland Attire.

I am beginning to ramble, so to those one or two individuals (am I being too optimistic?) who are still with me at this point, I'll spare you the rest.

[Alan H]

DFWII I read your entire answer twice, and I appreciate hearing your thoughts.

[DWFII]

DFWII I read your entire answer twice, and I appreciate hearing your thoughts.

Well, that is going beyond the call of duty! :mrgreen:

But it is also a great compliment...I thank you.

[Freelancer]

Well, when I first posed this question, I never expected a sort of "Spanish Inquisition"!

Seriously though, the intent of my question was to clarify what I had seen firsthand, namely, a large contingent of PC clad gentleman marching in a parade in the daytime. In the opinion of a traditionalist, did the occasion of a parade qualify as an exception to the usual protocol of formal Highland attire? Well, the question was answered quite thoroughly, and I thank you all for your thoughtfulness and interest in posting your replies.

I must say that it is a credit to this forum that it's members conduct themselves with grace and courtesy, even during what may seem to be a contentious circumstance. I applaud you, one and all.

Best,
Ken

[macwilkin]

Well said, DWFII.

I think Jamie raises a very valid point that there are modern variants in traditional Highland attire, such as white hose, that are now accepted de facto as the norm. Personally, I'm not much on the idea, but I won't begrudge anyone who would wear them.

That being said, I feel at times that traditionalists are marginalized at times by terms such as "kilt police" and the term I loathe, "kilt nazi". Such terms fail to take into account the importance and regards that many have in their hears for the customs and traditions of Highland attire.

If traditionalists are a bit thin-skinned at times, a lot of it is due to being compared (unfairly I might add) to fascist thugs. To get respect, you must give it. While I can only hold myself up to certain standards regarding Highland dress, I feel that even the most contemporary kilt wearer should, if nothing else, acknowledge the long history of Highland attire -- just as I acknowledge that Highland attire is changing to a degree.

Regards,

Todd