Imitation, sincerest form of flattery?

[macwilkin]

I think in the States there are two types of emmigrint families. Ones that are keen to maintain old world traditions and hand them down and ones (like mine) who embraced their new country and traditions quickly. My grandfather was first generation born to Scottish parents and might have maintained a few Scottish traditons but Dad new nothing of them and frankly couldn't care less. So why did I as a young child feel a connection to my Scottish and Irish and English heritage? I don't really know, I just did.
I never want to be the "ugly American" when traveling abroad and I've never had bad experience. I think being respectful of the host country's culture goes a long way with the locals. It works both ways too. Years ago I was in Tombstone Arizona on vacation and saw information signs written in German. I asked why and was told Germans love the wild west and must come in large numbers and probably do wild west fests in Germany. Who knows?! Are they posers. Who cares? It is amusing like it's probably amusing for the Scots when we show up kilted. It's all about respect though. If you act in respectful manner chances are you'll gain the respect of people meet.

It's interesting you bring up the German tourists in Tombstone, as it was my experience as a ranger at the Civil War Battlefield that the Brits and Canadians were always more well-versed in American history, especially Civil War history, then most Americans who visited the site.

Regards,

Todd

[Dall_Piobaire]

It's interesting you bring up the German tourists in Tombstone, as it was my experience as a ranger at the Civil War Battlefield that the Brits and Canadians were always more well-versed in American history, especially Civil War history, then most Americans who visited the site.

Regards,

Todd

It's because history doesn't fit in with our, "no child left behind". Left behind?....More like no child left in school!

Forget your history and you are doomed to repeat it!

Seems I know a few other countries that fought for independence from the crowm!

[Old Hippie]

What is the attitude towards our inclination from those who are natives, be they Irish, Scots, or Welsh?

I had to think about that a while. I grew up an American, and I've also had the immigrant experience of becoming a Canadian. I know whereof ChubRock speaks, about his part of the world and the Scandinavian influence there. My mother came from near there, and she always identified very strongly with the Norwegians, notwithstanding her maiden name was Alford, from around the town of that name in Scotland.

When I lived in Iowa, I knew that many Norwegian linguists came to the Decorah area to hear dialects of Norwegian that had died out long since in Norway. I suspect in time Cape Breton, Nova Scotia may take on the same significance to the Gaelic.

It's what sociologists call "The Museum Effect" -- immigrants preserve traditions that remind them of home, while back home the culture keeps evolving -- eventually leaving those traditions behind. There's a whole stack of conceptual research behind all this, but basically any group that identifies itself as a "diaspora" has to hold on to the possibility of "return." This is so even when there is "no there there" to which to return. Give up the idea of return, even if it's only a cultural tradition, and you are no longer a diasporic community. You're citizens of a different place.

(Imagine a group from the Scottish Diaspora, dressed as authentically as possible and well-versed in the politics, technology and manners of 1745. Now imagine them trying to "resettle" in Edinburgh...)

Looking at the interface between culture and identity is endlessly fascinating to me, which is why I do it for a living. There is a temptation to say it's all a cartoon. But ultimately the only things that have meaning to people are those things they have negotiated for themselves and incorporated into their lives. It all only has reality to the extent that it serves a useful purpose.

:ootd:

[macwilkin]

I had to think about that a while. I grew up an American, and I've also had the immigrant experience of becoming a Canadian. I know whereof ChubRock speaks, about his part of the world and the Scandinavian influence there. My mother came from near there, and she always identified very strongly with the Norwegians, notwithstanding her maiden name was Alford, from around the town of that name in Scotland.

When I lived in Iowa, I knew that many Norwegian linguists came to the Decorah area to hear dialects of Norwegian that had died out long since in Norway. I suspect in time Cape Breton, Nova Scotia may take on the same significance to the Gaelic.

It's what sociologists call "The Museum Effect" -- immigrants preserve traditions that remind them of home, while back home the culture keeps evolving -- eventually leaving those traditions behind. There's a whole stack of conceptual research behind all this, but basically any group that identifies itself as a "diaspora" has to hold on to the possibility of "return." This is so even when there is "no there there" to which to return. Give up the idea of return, even if it's only a cultural tradition, and you are no longer a diasporic community. You're citizens of a different place.

(Imagine a group from the Scottish Diaspora, dressed as authentically as possible and well-versed in the politics, technology and manners of 1745. Now imagine them trying to "resettle" in Edinburgh...)

Looking at the interface between culture and identity is endlessly fascinating to me, which is why I do it for a living. There is a temptation to say it's all a cartoon. But ultimately the only things that have meaning to people are those things they have negotiated for themselves and incorporated into their lives. It all only has reality to the extent that it serves a useful purpose.

:ootd:

Well said -- this wins the "best post in this thread" award (from me anyway, for what that's worth!)

Where did you live in Iowa? It's interesting that you should mention Decorah and the Norwegian immigrant communities there -- my mother grew up in a small town just off of I-35 (Highway 69 then) about 30 miles south of Clear Lake/Mason City which was overwhelmingly Scandinavian in ethnicity (with a few Germans thrown in) -- even though we are not Norwegian, Norwegian culture can still be found in my mother's hatred of Lutefisk (she had to dip it out of the barrels at the store where she worked at Christmas) and my grandmother's limited Norwegian vocabulary (uff da!)

T.

[Tartanraven]

If I recall history correctly.. the Celts were throughout the British Isles.. now as one might rephrase and suggest not all Scots are "Gaels" that would be more to the point..

The Celts were mainly the Scotti, and inhabited the western edge of Scotland.
MOST of Scotland north of the Forth were Picts. The far northeast were Catti German. So at best, only aboot 1/3 of the original Scots were Celt.

[Tartanraven]

Here is a thought.
To me, being a poseur is wanting to be someone else, when it is possible to be so. Examples are...if you want to be a Navy SEAL, then be one..it is possible!
One who chooses to emulate a fashion from history, or a manner from history is not a poseur, but a re creationist. A person who is of Scottish heritage, and celebrates that is merely enjoying and reconnecting with their culture, with the assumption that they are admitting that they are who they are. If you are dressing the part, and adopting the accent and syntax, and passing yourself off as being from somewhere you are not...then you are a poseur.
I was brought up in a Scottish home in America (Missouri). Until the birth of my kids, I was the only American in my family. I had to deal with stupid teachers that almost literally beat my accent out of me...shame that, but I've got my beautiful Doric voice back. My family is known in Aberdeen..most still live there, and in other parts of the UK...so I am known as "he who is in exile" LOL

[macwilkin]

Here is a thought.
To me, being a poseur is wanting to be someone else, when it is possible to be so. Examples are...if you want to be a Navy SEAL, then be one..it is possible!
One who chooses to emulate a fashion from history, or a manner from history is not a poseur, but a re creationist. A person who is of Scottish heritage, and celebrates that is merely enjoying and reconnecting with their culture, with the assumption that they are admitting that they are who they are. If you are dressing the part, and adopting the accent and syntax, and passing yourself off as being from somewhere you are not...then you are a poseur.
I was brought up in a Scottish home in America (Missouri). Until the birth of my kids, I was the only American in my family. I had to deal with stupid teachers that almost literally beat my accent out of me...shame that, but I've got my beautiful Doric voice back. My family is known in Aberdeen..most still live there, and in other parts of the UK...so I am known as "he who is in exile" LOL

Where at in Missouri? I'm in SW Mo. There is a fairly large Scots expat community in St. Louis. In fact, I'm wearing my Scottish St. Andrew's Society of Greater St. Louis polo shirt today!

T.

[Phil]

Please, please, nobody who wants to identify with Scottish culture should ever consider themselves to be a poseur. If they purport to be a member of the nobility or some other similar type of hanger-on as a means of vicariously attempting to be something they are not as a way of impressing or influencing others then they are poseurs, or worse out and out fraudsters. Wishing to identify with a culture you admire is laudable, especially when that culture is as strong and unique as being Scottish. I know, I am biased here but no-one who identifies with Scottish culture and all that entails could ever be accused of being a poseur.

[thescot]

I like kilts. I like Scotland. I like Northern Ireland, and would probably like the Republic of Ireland if I had ever visitesw there. But I really like what Jock said, too. He's usually right on.

Kilts are an item of clothing, a style that originated in Scotland and tends to identify one with Scotland, but it's not exactly a religious icon, nor does it have to do with respect or being in touch with my roots. At least not for me. My own blood is so far removed from Scotland that no one can even say exactly how it winded up here, in me.

So, I wear a kilt whenever I like, and I wear it in the "traditional" manner with "traditional" accoutrements. (Pardon the French) I do so in a way I've seen it worn in Scotland and in a manner that I think befits a middle aged gentleman.

Speaking of the misinformed tourists reminds me of people I've met who know nothing about the South and think that none of us wear shoes and that we always call grocery sacks a "poke" while eating "chitlin's and grits." Or guys who think everyone in Texas wears a cowboy hat.

Some of the outfits I've seen at the local games here, if worn in Scotland, wouldn't land you in jail, but it probably should. On the other hand, it might land you in the loony bin.

Good to hear from the Scots in our midst. Thanks. I "respect" your country and a' that and 'a that, but it has nothing to do with my kilt wearing. Just please don't come to Atlanta and order chitlins.

[Phil]

Speaking of the misinformed tourists reminds me of people I've met who know nothing about the South and think that none of us wear shoes and that we always call grocery sacks a "poke"

You maybe don't realise it but a "poke" is pure Scots. Anyone from Glasgow would immediately know what a "poke of chips" or a "poke of sweeties" was. So you see, some things have endured down the years.
Next thing you'll be telling us that you would go for a daunder down to the river and have a plouter there! Or how about a chittle on a chittery bite? (chittle is Scots to nibble or gnaw on something and a chittery bite would be a snack of something).