Project Blog - Historic Sporrans / Brass Cantle Project

[longhuntr74]

I will definitely be following this thread. I, too, have a love of historical based items and never ceased to be amazed by your abilities and craftsmanship. Keep us updated on the status of these projects.

[artificer]

Something you may want to look into are some sporrans being sold by http://www.glengarryhats.com/
They are modeled after those seen in the R.R McIan clan portraits. So it is a similar idea that you have. Though I think theirs are mass produced in some place.

Thanks for the link.
Aye, I recently ran across their site. It seems like they take a fair amount of liberty in converting the sporrans in the original images (which weren't even all that detailed to begin with) over into a standard 'pipe band' sporran construction.

I will definitely be following this thread. I, too, have a love of historical based items and never ceased to be amazed by your abilities and craftsmanship. Keep us updated on the status of these projects.

Thanks!

You asked for it, you got it!

Unfortunately, this update is to say that I talked to my smith late last night. They've had a busy run in the shop this last week, which is good, but means that the fully realized 3D image won't be ready until next week for my final approval. The master will follow after that (probably by a week+ if their current work load continues).

On the upside, I've sent an email to the STM with a few questions regarding the Muirhead sporran. With luck, they'll be able to assist me in my obsessive quest for the proper detailing.

I should also have a progress update on #14 to post tonite or tomorrow AM.

[artificer]

After continually tweaking some of the proportions, I think I am close to where I want the Stewart cantle to be.



For reference, the Stewart cantle is "F" in the below image:


I'm hoping to have that Muirhead construction conversation with the STM this week, which may change a few small things, but not to the eye of the observer. They would all be internal alterations.

On the issue of the bells for all of the tassels. On the Stewart piece, they are depicted as VERY narrow compared to modern ones. This is where I end up 'taking a leap'. The bells are so tiny in the images that they convey basically no detail at all (apart from general size and shape). I have a feeling that they probably AREN'T devoid of detail, but my guess is that they aren't Victorian in their level of detail either.

I am really on the fence on the issue of casting these versus building them up and doing a little hand stamped detail.

Casting means starting with making a master, then rubber moulds for it, and of course the joy of handling molten metal. The nice part of casting is that once all the back work is done, you can replicate them until the mould reaches the end of it's life-cycle, at which point you can remake the mould using the original master.

I just don't know that I'd need to make more than a handful of these very narrow bells, which would tend to point me toward construction rather than casting.

Just 'shop talk' really, but there I sit.

With luck, I'll have the 3D image for the brass cantles LATE tomorrow night.

[artificer]

Hi all,
for those of you still sticking with this, I warned you it was going to be a LONG process

With luck, my smith and I will be able to meet tomorrow late. He should have the drawings for the round cantle ready, according to our last conversation.


As I was sitting here assemblijng a leather cantle and contemplating the long delay for the second shape I was staring at my concepts board and a feeling crept over me. The feeling that perhaps the two cantles were a touch too similar in shape.

After I drove the harness needle into my thumb (again), I decided to take a break and whip up a quick alternate to hopefully get feedback from all of you on.

Here it is, cantle #2 (original) vs cantle #3 (new concept).


The top and inside corners would be slightly rounded, this is just a rough drawing.
Any thoughts?

I'm personally inclined to steer toward #3. Some of the best things I've ever come up with have been a last minute 'bolt from the blue'.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Hi all,
for those of you still sticking with this, I warned you it was going to be a LONG process

With luck, my smith and I will be able to meet tomorrow late. He should have the drawings for the round cantle ready, according to our last conversation.


As I was sitting here assemblijng a leather cantle and contemplating the long delay for the second shape I was staring at my concepts board and a feeling crept over me. The feeling that perhaps the two cantles were a touch too similar in shape.

After I drove the harness needle into my thumb (again), I decided to take a break and whip up a quick alternate to hopefully get feedback from all of you on.

Here it is, cantle #2 (original) vs cantle #3 (new concept).


The top and inside corners would be slightly rounded, this is just a rough drawing.
Any thoughts?

I'm personally inclined to steer toward #3. Some of the best things I've ever come up with have been a last minute 'bolt from the blue'.

Both look good to me.

[Kiltman]

Thanks for this blog. I was about to quit looking here, but I'll be back to see where your contribution goes.

[BobsYourUncle]

Both look good to me.

Don't discount MoR's comment. You should produce both square top versions. They each produce different effects, and each have their own appeal.

[MacRobert's Reply]

On the issue of the bells for all of the tassels. On the Stewart piece, they are depicted as VERY narrow compared to modern ones. This is where I end up 'taking a leap'. The bells are so tiny in the images that they convey basically no detail at all (apart from general size and shape). I have a feeling that they probably AREN'T devoid of detail, but my guess is that they aren't Victorian in their level of detail either.

I am really on the fence on the issue of casting these versus building them up and doing a little hand stamped detail.

The owner of my local highland dress shop has two boxes of old (mainly Victorian) sporran bells that he uses on new and refurbished sporrans. Some are cast and others are constructed. Most appear to be silver plated. Almost all have molded or engraved details such as thistles and geometric designs. They are almost all much narrower than modern bells and the holes through which the chain passes are generally much smaller than modern ones. The chain must have been much thinner on Victorian sporrans.

PM me if you would like me to measure a few of them or ask the owner if I can photograph some of them or even see if he is willing to sell some of the one-off designs as patterns.

[artificer]

Both look good to me.

Don't discount MoR's comment. You should produce both square top versions. They each produce different effects, and each have their own appeal.

Unfortunately I'm most likely limited by just two styles to start. The material used to make the masters is EXTREMELY expensive (think the cost of a good L&M sporran per master). Also, the shop time (which I'm not paying for on the first two, due to my making the smith's harnesses for his full plate armour) to set up for a master is very expensive as well (more expensive per hour than a plumber or electrician).

Should the response be solid for the first two styles, I may initiate the third.

I am still investigating pewter casting for the MacLeay non-functional cantles, and I think it's a pretty good way to go for extremely limited run pieces. Most likely I'll start mastering the first piece after the holidays.

The one I'm most likely headed toward is pictured being worn by the Menzies.


I love the unique shape of these cantles, and think they'd be smashing in person.

Thanks for this blog. I was about to quit looking here, but I'll be back to see where your contribution goes.

Thanks! As I warned at the beginning it is a true BLOG rather than a WIP.
Much of these postings are my stumbling through the design process and development.

The owner of my local highland dress shop has two boxes of old (mainly Victorian) sporran bells that he uses on new and refurbished sporrans. Some are cast and others are constructed. Most appear to be silver plated. Almost all have molded or engraved details such as thistles and geometric designs. They are almost all much narrower than modern bells and the holes through which the chain passes are generally much smaller than modern ones. The chain must have been much thinner on Victorian sporrans.

PM me if you would like me to measure a few of them or ask the owner if I can photograph some of them or even see if he is willing to sell some of the one-off designs as patterns.

This would be most excellent! Thank you. PM sent.

[artificer]

I'm giving this a bump here to hopefully get a few more opinions on the second cantle shape.

#1 is the round top, and is already in the works.

Below are the options for the other shape.

Here it is, cantle #2 (original) vs cantle #3 (new concept).


I should add that the outer and inner corners on #3 would be softened and slightly rounded, this was a quickie sketch to cement the idea in my head.

So, which one is the favorite? I'm personally leaning toward #3 as it is further in shape from the round cantle, giving a bit more variation than #2 would.

Thoughts, anyone else?