Wearing a basket hilt.?.

[BobsYourUncle]

Complete and detailed instructions, with illustrations, for wearing a basket hilt in several different belted configurations can be found here: http://drummajor.net/documents/RDMADressManualv2_5.pdf

This is the dress manual of the Regimental Drum Major Association.

While others have discoursed at length, and with erudition, about the advisability of wearing a basket hilted sword with civilian attire, the actual question posed was how to do so. I hope this helps. Regards, BYU

[SlackerDrummer]

Kenneth, if you are referring to the photograph of the MacNeil of Barra,

then it is worth pointing out that he is wearing a uniform, Highland Court Dress, worn by gentlemen at levees, State Balls, coronations, and such. The dress regulations are spelled out in publications from the Lord Chamberlain. Gentlemen commanded to attend The Sovereign at Court had/have no choice but to wear what is prescibed by the Lord Chamberlain.

Thanks for the clarification, Sandy. That is indeed the photo to which I was referring.

[davidlpope]

David,
This argument appears to me to be disingenuous. You are confusing the argument both with your choice of words and your example. I don't believe the "modern" basket-hilt broadsword is different from the historical version which was carried by both civilians and the military, although I may be incorrect in that assumption. I would venture to guess that most people who are wearing basket-hilt broadswords to events like highland games are wearing replicas of historical swords. So even if there is a difference between between historical swords and the modern one, your point about who has earned the right to wear the modern one is moot. More to the point, though, the basket-hilt broadsword is not at all like the modern officer's or NCO's swords, which came into being after it was no longer fashionable for citizens to wear swords (thanks to the mass production of firearms). The basket-hilt broadsword, on the other hand, was carried by civilians for centuries, so transposing military customs onto its use isn't quite fair. It would be completely fair to suggest that no one should wear the sword you earned as an officer in the Marine Corps (did I get that right?), but the two are simply not analogous.

I think we disagree on this one...

Here is a modern basket-hilt broadsword being carried by an officer of the Royal Regiment of Scotland:

Here are some basket-hilt broadswords in historical styles:


Surely there was a time when swords, such as those pictured above, were a common weapon for Scots, regardless of their social standing (although I suspect that Pole-Arms were perhaps more common, just not as "cool" to future generations). As in the rest of the world, these swords ceased to be functional not long after the rise in popularity of the firearms. As a result, swords were relegated to a ceremonial purpose, that of setting apart some in the military from others. In most cases this distinction was between officers and enlisted men, although Non-Commissioned Officers in the Marine Corps rate swords of their own. Even British court dress used the sword as a symbol that the bearer is a gentleman, not that his ancestors may have hacked at someone with a "previous model."

I guess I can imagine three different scenarios in which one might see a sword being worn in a Highland Games context:
1. The sword is worn as part of a uniform- e.g. the Drum Major of a Pipe Band in Full No.1 Dress. In this case the sword is a part of the uniform and is a sign of rank/significance.
2. A reenactor, dressed to portray an 18th century Highlander, is wearing a period-accurate sword as part of a living history exhibit. In this case the sword is used to demonstrate the manner in which historical Scots fought, so in a sense it has a utilitarian purpose for this particular demonstration.
3. Some guy buys a cheap, imported, basket-hilt broadsword from ebay, straps it on over a couple yards of tartan flannel bought at Jo-Ann Fabric that he's wrapped around his waist, paints his face blue (just like William Wallace did!!), puts on his special "Jacobite" frilly shirt, and attends his local highland games for the first time because he thinks that's what should be worn. I have no idea what purpose the sword could possible serve, other than to make him look like he is a kid playing "dress-up".

IMHO, wearing a bogus "weapon" with a kilt just serves to make kilted attire a "costume", in the perjorative sense.

David

[Dale Seago]

Surely there was a time when swords, such as those pictured above, were a common weapon for Scots, regardless of their social standing (although I suspect that Pole-Arms were perhaps more common, just not as "cool" to future generations).

Pretty much correct in my understanding. By The Forty-Five, at least, most Scottish Gael were too cash-poor to own a sword unless they had a hand-me-down.

As in the rest of the world, these swords ceased to be functional not long after the rise in popularity of the firearms. As a result, swords were relegated to a ceremonial purpose, that of setting apart some in the military from others. In most cases this distinction was between officers and enlisted men, although Non-Commissioned Officers in the Marine Corps rate swords of their own. Even British court dress used the sword as a symbol that the bearer is a gentleman, not that his ancestors may have hacked at someone with a "previous model."

I essentially agree, with the proviso that "not long" may be longer than some realize. The gentlemen of the clans, the "front-rankers" in the battle order, were using swords along with muskets and pistols through the 1745-46 Rising, and I recall at least one instance of a unit of Highlanders using their broadswords in a battle on the North American continent against an outnumbering force of Siberian-Americans during the French & Indian Wars a decade or so later.

I guess I can imagine three different scenarios in which one might see a sword being worn in a Highland Games context:
1. The sword is worn as part of a uniform- e.g. the Drum Major of a Pipe Band in Full No.1 Dress. In this case the sword is a part of the uniform and is a sign of rank/significance.

Always looks great.

2. A reenactor, dressed to portray an 18th century Highlander, is wearing a period-accurate sword as part of a living history exhibit. In this case the sword is used to demonstrate the manner in which historical Scots fought, so in a sense it has a utilitarian purpose for this particular demonstration.

I dearly love these, as long as they're confining their efforts to a portrayal of how they looked and what they fought with. At various events in California there are always reenactors who seem to think they're portraying how they fought, and I always have to put great effort into NOT going out onto the field and smacking them around to give them a sense of the ways in which they're leaving themselves open.

3. Some guy buys a cheap, imported, basket-hilt broadsword from ebay, straps it on over a couple yards of tartan flannel bought at Jo-Ann Fabric that he's wrapped around his waist, paints his face blue (just like William Wallace did!!), puts on his special "Jacobite" frilly shirt, and attends his local highland games for the first time because he thinks that's what should be worn. I have no idea what purpose the sword could possible serve, other than to make him look like he is a kid playing "dress-up".

IMHO, wearing a bogus "weapon" with a kilt just serves to make kilted attire a "costume", in the perjorative sense.

See my above comment pertaining to smacking around.

By the way, in the photo of the swords & dirks, the second dirk down looks like Vince & Grace Evans' work (she does the handle carving). . .the backsword with the browned-steel basket looks Vince-ish to me too. Really sweet!!!

[SlackerDrummer]

I think we disagree on this one...

Here is a modern basket-hilt broadsword being carried by an officer of the Royal Regiment of Scotland:

Here are some basket-hilt broadswords in historical styles:


Surely there was a time when swords, such as those pictured above, were a common weapon for Scots, regardless of their social standing (although I suspect that Pole-Arms were perhaps more common, just not as "cool" to future generations). As in the rest of the world, these swords ceased to be functional not long after the rise in popularity of the firearms. As a result, swords were relegated to a ceremonial purpose, that of setting apart some in the military from others. In most cases this distinction was between officers and enlisted men, although Non-Commissioned Officers in the Marine Corps rate swords of their own. Even British court dress used the sword as a symbol that the bearer is a gentleman, not that his ancestors may have hacked at someone with a "previous model."

I don't know that we disagree as much as you might think. I said I was unsure of the "sameness" of the modern sword, which apparently is different, so I do think the wearing of historical replicas undercuts the notion that that sword (the one being worn) is in any way a misappropriated symbol of rank or achievement. Getting into the whole notion of the sword being a symbol of gentility gets tricky in this country where there is by Constitutional guarantee no social strata defining such. Either everyone is potentially a gentleman or no one is.

I guess I can imagine three different scenarios in which one might see a sword being worn in a Highland Games context:
1. The sword is worn as part of a uniform- e.g. the Drum Major of a Pipe Band in Full No.1 Dress. In this case the sword is a part of the uniform and is a sign of rank/significance.
2. A reenactor, dressed to portray an 18th century Highlander, is wearing a period-accurate sword as part of a living history exhibit. In this case the sword is used to demonstrate the manner in which historical Scots fought, so in a sense it has a utilitarian purpose for this particular demonstration.

Both of the above should be welcomed and encouraged I would think.

3. Some guy buys a cheap, imported, basket-hilt broadsword from ebay, straps it on over a couple yards of tartan flannel bought at Jo-Ann Fabric that he's wrapped around his waist, paints his face blue (just like William Wallace did!!), puts on his special "Jacobite" frilly shirt, and attends his local highland games for the first time because he thinks that's what should be worn. I have no idea what purpose the sword could possible serve, other than to make him look like he is a kid playing "dress-up".

Always a little embarrassing to me to see. I saw very similar types of travesties at pow-wows when I was a teenager and exploring in earnest that part of my family tree.

IMHO, wearing a bogus "weapon" with a kilt just serves to make kilted attire a "costume", in the perjorative sense.

I think here is where we may differ, but I'm not sure what you mean by "bogus". I will concede that in looking back through the Highlanders of Scotland series (or at least the ones I can find online), most of the men brandishing swords are wearing some sort of doublet, so I assume they are in Court Dress as Sandy described (thanks again, Sandy). There is at least one, maybe two (hard to tell), who is carrying a sword and who is wearing daywear. This is to say, I'm beginning to back off of my theory that wearing the sword as part of one's finery to show one's "highlandness" was a practice even after the wearing a swords fell out of fashion. I do still think that wearing a sword with period clothing as late as the mid-19th century would be fine for someone, say, running a clan booth - with the caveat that they disclosed that they were in historical costume to those who visited their booth.

But I think we can all agree that exception must be made for Hector MacDonald.

[Bigkahuna]

"Siberian-Americans". That's one I haven't heard before.

[Dale Seago]

"Siberian-Americans". That's one I haven't heard before.

I figure I can get away with that: Despite my appearance my ancestry includes Cherokee, Comanche, Lakota, and southern Canadian Cree. And my late paternal aunt, Seago Blackstar Whitewolf, was (as far as I know) the last traditional Comanche medicine woman.

[Dale Seago]

And my late paternal aunt, Seago Blackstar Whitewolf, was (as far as I know) the last traditional Comanche medicine woman.

Postscript: She was helping Steve Seagal with some medical stuff before his divorce (dropped him when he started doing his babysitter) and consulted on this movie, in which she has a cameo appearance and is mentioned as one of the "medicine persons" in the credits:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Deadly_Ground

[macwilkin]

I essentially agree, with the proviso that "not long" may be longer than some realize. The gentlemen of the clans, the "front-rankers" in the battle order, were using swords along with muskets and pistols through the 1745-46 Rising, and I recall at least one instance of a unit of Highlanders using their broadswords in a battle on the North American continent against an outnumbering force of Siberian-Americans during the French & Indian Wars a decade or so later.

Are you thinking of Bushy Run? Your description sounds more like Moore's Creek Bridge, when Highland Loyalists charged a line of North Carolina Scots-Irish patriots with the cry, "King George & Broadswords!"

T.

[Dale Seago]

Are you thinking of Bushy Run?

Yes, I was, wherefore: Oops!! Pontiac's Rebellion, just months after the F & I War, in 1763. That's even later than I'd been thinking.