More on Septs

[Nick the DSM]

But to add to the confusion the Morrison's of Perthshire are specifically mentioned as a sept of the Clan Buchanan. But how a Morrison family living here in the USA for, say, 200 years is supposed to know his family came from Perthshire I'll never know. So I just send all the Morrisons over to the Clan Morrison tent.

See, this is how septs confuse people!

This is exactly the kind of thing that got me pondering. I have 5 separate direct ancestors (so far!), that have either Morrison or Morison spellings. They were living in Buchan and Banff in the 1700s and 1800's, not Perthshire ot the Western isles. But there again, Morrison is a very common name, simply meaning "son of Maurice", there are many English families with the surname Morrison who have no Scottish connections at all, in fact under the old spelling Moryson it is a very old English name that arrived with William the Conqueror. It's been pointed out that there were Morysons in Ireland, as Sir Richard Moryson was the Vice-President of Munster, but Moryson was born in England to an old English family, and he returned to England to live out his retirement and die. His son Francis emigrated from England in the 1600's and became Governor of Virginia. Two of his sons, Richard and Robert, emigrated to Virginia too.

So, hypothetically, some Virginian Morrisons could go to a USA highland games and see information that might make them think they were of Gaelic Highland extract, and buy some kilts, etc, while in fact it is the blood of Normans, Vikings, Angles and Saxons that courses through their veins.

I do see this kind of thing happening a lot. Even at piping competitions that I help run, we get American tourists come in on a fairly regular basis, (and by that I mean maybe 2 to 4 a day), saying "my surname is XXXXXXXXXXXXX, what tartan am I entitled to wear". If that question gets asked at a piping competition, I can only imagine that it gets asked far more frequently at a tartan shop.


Ultimately I think the whole "sept" business could be a bit of harmless fun, (as many in Scotland view the whole business of kilt wearing/Clan membership, to be honest), but I meet many who take the whole thing as if it is gospel truth and it does kind of sadden me on two levels:
1. People are being taken advantage of.
2. People are happy to be taken advantage of just so long as it gives them a sense of belonging to something that they want to be part of, for whatever personal reasons they may have.

But that's just human nature, I guess. We are all still tribal somewhere deep within ourselves. We demonstrate this in many different ways, including joining forums like this where the thing that unites is is a bittie of coloured cloth we buckle round our waists.

Cheers to you all.

That's where it gets messy. Names are all over the place in Britain and Ireland even Gilmore is found in Ireland as an Irish name. Only reason I know that I'm Scottish when my family came from Ireland was that they were sons of Scottish settlers. It almost seems like hit and miss sometimes with other ethnics taking the names, even English or Welsh may have a certain surname that is usually Scottish.

[gilmore]

It all belongs to the same clan anyways, right? Well, I won't say for every clan or sept, but speaking for my own experience my family is a Gillmore, which is a "sept" of Morrison. I'll happily wear Morrison tartans and not be bothered with it. Don't need to invent a Gilmore tartan....

The Gilmores are not a sept of the Morrison clan, they ARE the Morrison clan. Gilmore is the original Gaelic. It was later anglicized to Morrison.

[MacSpadger]

Hmm, I think that the story of Clan Morrision comes from at least 3 different strands. First of all there are what is probably the most common branch, those who are descendents of a man or men whose name was Maurice, which was hugely popular in Medieval times. This branch is based in Aberdeenshire, (I am from there and have several Morison ancestors. The name was written with one R until very recent times, although some still use it that way).

The West Coast/Hebridean branch settled in Skye and Mull as bards under the patronage of the chiefs of Clan MacLeod (around 1600)and MacLean of Duart (around 1612) respectively. The original Gaelic spelling for this family was Ó Muirgheasáin, as they were from the North of Ireland where they had previously held bardic positions for the O'Neills.

The Isle of Lewis branch claimed descent from the King of Norway, and in Scottish Gaelic the spelling was Mac Gille Mhoire, which is probably closer to what you refer to. This clan seemed to disperse after 1613, following a huge defeat by Clan MacAuley after years of inter clan warfare, and it was declared in the 19th century that it was impossible to trace their descendants.

Although apparently not related, these 3 families were declared a united clan under one chief by the Lord Lyon in 1965. So,
Mac Gille Mhoire was the original Gaelic name of one branch only of the Morrisons, the branch where, so far, no descendants have been traced.

[McElmurry]

Hmm, I think that the story of Clan Morrision comes from at least 3 different strands. First of all there are what is probably the most common branch, those who are descendents of a man or men whose name was Maurice, which was hugely popular in Medieval times. This branch is based in Aberdeenshire, (I am from there and have several Morison ancestors. The name was written with one R until very recent times, although some still use it that way).

The West Coast/Hebridean branch settled in Skye and Mull as bards under the patronage of the chiefs of Clan MacLeod (around 1600)and MacLean of Duart (around 1612) respectively. The original Gaelic spelling for this family was Ó Muirgheasáin, as they were from the North of Ireland where they had previously held bardic positions for the O'Neills.

The Isle of Lewis branch claimed descent from the King of Norway, and in Scottish Gaelic the spelling was Mac Gille Mhoire, which is probably closer to what you refer to. This clan seemed to disperse after 1613, following a huge defeat by Clan MacAuley after years of inter clan warfare, and it was declared in the 19th century that it was impossible to trace their descendants.

Although apparently not related, these 3 families were declared a united clan under one chief by the Lord Lyon in 1965. So,
Mac Gille Mhoire was the original Gaelic name of one branch only of the Morrisons, the branch where, so far, no descendants have been traced.

That is all consistent with what I have read. The Clan Morrison Society of North America describes
the Norway connection as a popular tale and recognizes other origins of the name. The Lord Lyon provided for regional chiefs for branches of the name but I only know of one that has been named. The big tent concept works well in North America where it would be difficult for folks to accurately identify their branch in many if not most cases. I imagine those in Scotland know which branch they are in and could put forward a regional chief if they were so inclined. You are in a better position than I to judge the need or motivation for doing so, or lack thereof.

[Nick the DSM]

The Gilmores are not a sept of the Morrison clan, they ARE the Morrison clan. Gilmore is the original Gaelic. It was later anglicized to Morrison.

Yes, you are quite correct. I think what I had meant was that Gilmore is just another "branch" in the Morrison clan namewise. Yes, it is the origin of the clan, but I think how I meant was even that it's named Clan Morrison the name Gilmore is part of the clan names.

[gilmore]

I did a search for "Jewish Gordon" and "Jewish tartan" in the threads here on Xmarks, and got far more results than I have time to go through. As I mentioned earlier, this was discussed in 3 or more threads some years ago here, and in the course of them, one of the X Markers whose name escapes me, from Glasgow and of Jewish descent who grew up in what is or was the Jewish section of that city, mentioned that it was so common that when he saw some one wearing a Gordon tartan kilt there, he assumed they were Jewish. What is his name? Is he still active on X Marks? He married and American and moved to Montana, I believe it was. I enjoyed reading his posts.

In addition to the stories mentioned in this thread about the adoption of the Gordon name by Jews, there is another, that one of the Marquesses of Huntley established a scholarship, I believe it was, for Jews.

As to the allegedly official Jewish tartan that the good rabbi is promoting, it has been the subject of controversy since its beginning. Concurrent with, or just before, his introduction of it, a Jewish British magazine ran a contest for a Jewish tartan, and none of the 3 finalist choices were his. I remember I got the impression at the time that there was more to the dispute as to what should be an "official" Jewish tartan than met the eye.

One of the problems mentioned with an allegedly official Jewish tartan is that there is no governing authority---no chief of a clan, no legislative body, no general synod, no pope, no chief rabbi, etc----for Judaism or for Jews who could make the decision as to what tartan should be official, as is the custom. The rabbi in question seems to be of the opinion that merely registering his tartan with the STA is sufficient. Of course it isn't.

[MacSpadger]

I did a search for "Jewish Gordon" and "Jewish tartan" in the threads here on Xmarks, and got far more results than I have time to go through. As I mentioned earlier, this was discussed in 3 or more threads some years ago here, and in the course of them, one of the X Markers whose name escapes me, from Glasgow and of Jewish descent who grew up in what is or was the Jewish section of that city, mentioned that it was so common that when he saw some one wearing a Gordon tartan kilt there, he assumed they were Jewish. What is his name? Is he still active on X Marks? He married and American and moved to Montana, I believe it was. I enjoyed reading his posts.

Yes, I believe I have found those by searching too, an ex Moderator called Arlen who appears to have provided the first reference to Jews wearing Gordon tartan in Glasgow. If only he knew what would begin from an innocent post.............

Chipping in a bit late...
I live just next to the highest Jewish population in Scotland. It's not at all uncommon to see folk wearing matching Kilts and Kippot to weddings or Bar Mitvahs.
I knew a folk folk when I was in School who would wear the Gordon tartan as in some Jewish communities Gordon is a popular surname. (There are many stories of why.)

But I have not found any of the photographs you previously mentioned. If they are evidence of the widespread wearing of Gordon tartan, that would be fantastic, although of course it would raise more questions than answers in this neck of the woods.
Why would a tartan developed in Aberdeen in the late 1700's specifically for a British Army regiment from the North East of Scotland , and to offically indentify that regiment, be associated with Jews living in Glasgow in the South West of Scotland?
I totally agree with Arlen that you can see matching Kilts and Kippot worn to weddings or Bar Mitvahs, (just as immigrant Sikhs wear matching turbans and kilts to Glasgow weddings), but have not seen any Gordon tartan with my own eyes, but that doesn't mean anything other than times may have changed. I see mainly the modern purple hued fashion tartans, Heritage of Scotland, etc.
Online searches regarding the wearing of Gordon tartan by Jews in Glasgow from other forums, blogs, online publications, seem to lead back to this forum and this forum only, one thread in particular, and the one magazine reference I found to Jews in Glasgow wearing Gordon tartan, after enquiry, also took this information from this forum.
Any solid or pictorial evidence would be fantastic. I have begun local enquiry here, where a vast amount of archive exists, in both the museums and the University, Scotland and Glasgow have always been fairly meticulous in record keeping, and there is a vast photographic archive too, in several places in Glasgow.
Lord George Gordon, by the way, is practically unknown in Scotland. He was born in England, lived in England, had a brief time in Holland while trying to avoid arrest, was imprisoned in England, converted to Judaism while in prison in England, died in England. A very English story, to my Caledonian eyes anyway. His life story is at odds with what is written in the aforementioned "Between Two Worlds" by Benjamin Gordon, in which is stated that Gordon travelled to places such as Lithuania where "Parents came to use his name when blessing their sons, and many families adopted his name as a surname. It was thus that my grandfather changed Gordomy to Gordon." As Gordon was an Englishman, I doubt it will be easy to find records regarding his travel, (apart from his attempts to avoid prison), without help for across the border. At the moment, there appears to be no evidence or record, hearsay or otherwise, of him ever having visited Scotland, it's very unlikely that he ever wore a kilt.

A lot of the other stuff out there, that the Gordons were originally Jewish, the founding of Aberdeen University by the Duke of Gordon with a clause that Jews must be included in the enrollment, are just nonsense. The Gordons were famously, some might say aggressively, Catholic, and this really got them into a lot of strife.
Aberdeen University was founded in 1495 by Bishop Elphinstone, under Papal Bull by the Pope, at that time Pope Alexander VI. Until the Reformation, it was entirely Roman Catholic in it's staff, teachings and pupils. Maybe there has been some confusion with Robert Gordon University. This was founded in the 18th century by Robert Gordon, who was a merchant and trader who made a fortune in Baltic trade and used his money to found the beginnings of the RGU. He was no aristocrat, however, he was a hard working trader who gave his money to establish fair care and education for "poor boys". No mention of Jews, but, as I have said, Aberdeen is at the opposite end of Scotland from Glasgow, so, no Glasgow connection either.

If I find any evidence it will make a striking addition to a significant cultural display currently ongoing. I do, at this point, feel that any further evidence, (if any), will be found in Glasgow itself, rather than online or in Aberdeen. It's common sense, really.

[Burly Brute]

I think the biggest reason for association among Americans is that we feel a distance, and we do in fact "want to know". However, I think part of that is due to the many cultures we have in America. For me personally, it is so diverse here that when I see others celebrating their heritage, I too wish to celebrate mine. The way I got from point A to where I am now, point B, was through this search. I began with my grandparents who originated from the south, and through research I narrowed my primary heritage to be from the British Isles, namely Scotland. So, currently I enjoy and celebrate this heritage, along with the surrounding regions simply to have something to claim, and hold on to, and hopefully pass on to my children along with our brief American history.

[Bugbear]

I was playing the septs game for a while back when I was looking into my ill-documented ancestry; trying to match sir names to some sort of clan. I thought I had a sept of MacMillan as a branch of my tree for a time; I'm sure they were worried. That was looking backward, though, and by having to associate spellings and so on. Turned out, I have no evidence of any Scottish ancestors. I'm sure the MacMillan clan is relieved, though they treated me very kindly throughout the whole ordeal.
Perhaps it is for the best.

[MacRob]

Sept is an Irish word meaning family. It is used frequently prior to the mid-19th c. but before that time nobody considered that there was or should be a list of family names related to the Clan or, more correctly, the Clan chief. The attempt to formalize a list of family names associated with Clans is most likely the result of a desire by early Scottish tartan merchants to widen their customer base. Fact is, when the Clans were in their heyday, everyone knew who they were and what their association was with their particular Clan.

Many Clans, thru genealogical work, have established lists of "related family names" (a much better term) historically associated with the Clan. Much of this comes from public records although tradition is also important. Sir Crispin Agnew, an officer of the Lyon Court, wrote a very interesting piece on the definition of a "sept" back in 2001. It is available online by googling his name. I think it lives on the Internet in Electric Scotland's web site.

I would not disregard the association of Clans with families bearing surnames other than that of the Chief. There is ample evidence and historic precedent for the connection between many Clans and the surnames on their "sept lists".