Question about choice of sporrans

[bear]

Bear,
Why does it have to be one or the other?
Why does someone who dresses in full highland attire automatically become someone who only wears their kilt as a costume half a dozen times a year?
Does someone in a tuxedo only wear trousers as a costume half a dozen times a year?
Can't someone dress in full highland attire for special occasions and wear a kilt casually every other day?
Why is it impossible to have an interest in the history, traditions and guidelines associated with the kilt and wear your kilt casually at the same time?

Someone who dresses in full highland attire automatically become someone who only wears their kilt as a costume half a dozen times a year because most of the guys who wear kilts wear them as costumes for special occasions only. All of those thousands of kilts sold every year and most of them sit in the closet for 360 days a year.
This does not preclude them from wearing casual kilts and I don't think I said anything like that. The reality is, people who dress in full highland attire won't, (as you yourself have said), wear anything but a wool tartan kilt and think of 4 yard kilts as skirts.
It is not impossible to have an interest in the history, traditions and guidelines associated with the kilt and wear your kilt casually at the same time. I just find that it isn't done by most who dress in full highland attire.
Your tuxedo analogy doesn't work because the tuxedo isn't a "national costume."

I don't see kilts solely as a Scottish garment. I see them as Celtic garments. The kilt, as far as I can tell from related internet sites, evolved from the Irish leine and brat brought to Scotland by the Irish that moved there. It was still evolving until English Royal 'decree' said that it was supposed to be worn a certain way.
I don't follow the fashion rules dictated to me by anyone else, royal or not. If I wanted to fit in, to conform to society, to follow other's rules, I'd be wearing pants.
The Irish, Cornish, and Welsh all wear kilts, too.

[Alaskan]

This does not preclude them from wearing casual kilts and I don't think I said anything like that.

I'm sorry if I was confused, Bear, but I thought that when you said there was a schism between people who thought of kilts as garments and people who thought of kilts as costumes that you were saying that people who want to learn the guidelines for kiltwear don't wear their kilts casually.

As for people who dress in full highland attire not wearing other kinds of kilts... I am curious why this means that they can't wear their kilts casually? I will buy 4 yard kilts. That is about the only area I am flexible on. I am flexible on this area for a number of reasons, one of them being that the great kilt was four yards of fabric, as was the original small kilt. It only grew to 8 yards when people with money used more cloth to show they had money. I have no interest in Utilikilts and other things like that because the difference in their construction from the construction of a traditional kilt is as great as the difference in construction of a bathrobe from a kimono. I have no problem with other people wearing them, and I don't think in any way that they are girlyy, they just aren't for me. (maybe someday, but not right now)

I went on a bit of a tangent there, but what I am trying to get at is that I am VERY narrow minded in what I consider a kilt, and I will dress in highland wear for formal occasions, but I will more often be wearing kilts casually, with a T-shirt, polo shirt, or sweater. It doesn't have to be a "casual kilt" to be worn casually.

I stick by my analogy of the tuxedo when arguing that it is possible to wear a kilt in full highland attire and also wear a kilt casually. The tuxedo argument was not involved in my argument about kilts as national dress, which I hadn't brought up in that post, as you seemed to be ignoring that whole area.

You are right, kilts are a Celtic garment. However, in Ireland and Wales the proper dress seems to be very similar to the proper dress in Scotland. Probably in part because the kilt only became popular again in Ireland and Wales after the Scottish kilt and tartan became popular. I don't know anything about Cornish kilts. However, whether you think of kilts as Celtic garments, or you think of them as Scottish garments, they are still a symbol of a people.

I am slightly offended when I see people in Japan wearing the WWJD? bracelets, neclaces etc. for fashion's sake. When asked if they are Christian they don't know why they are being asked that, and when you explain what WWJD? stands for they say they didn't know. I am not even a devout Christian. It just shows a disrespect to a people to take something that is a symbol of them and incorporate it into your daily wear without even taking the time to learn about it. I wouldn't care if someone who isn't Christian wore those bracelets, as long as they understood what it means. And that is just for these cheap little trinkets that came about in the past decade. I feel much stronger about things that have been around for a long time.

This is why I have said already many times in this thread: Breaking the rules is OK, but not learning the rules or saying that they aren't worth learning is disrespectful. The kilt is the symbol of a people, and as such there should be some considerations made when wearing it.

[Rob]

Alaskan,

I do get the impression that you are much more ‘narrow minded’ (to use your own words), concerning the etiquette of kilt wearing, than all but the most snobbish kilt wearing Scotsmen. Where did you get the impression that there are ‘rules’ defining the correct way to wear kilts? Who exactly laid down these rules, and by what statutes are these rules enforced? As far as I know, there are none, only particular people’s opinions on acceptable ways to wear a kilt. Most of these are more a matter of common sense and sensible matching of accessories than rules as such, e.g. a tartan kilt with a Hawaiian flower patterned shirt would look ridiculous, but there are no enforceable rules, which say you can’t wear such a combination, if you are determined to make a fool of yourself.

As Bear has pointed out, the tartan kilt is probably a distant descendent of the Irish leine. Much of the current perception of ‘the’ kilt being ‘the’ Scottish National Dress is modern (post WW2). Even in my early years (1950s), kilts were regarded as being a form of clothing for Highland men and boys. This excluded the majority of Scots, who are Lowlanders, so at best it could only really be described as a regional (not national) dress. I am sure that when kilts were regarded as Highland male clothing, there were no strict rules or regulations about how they could or couldn’t be worn, any more than there were for the wearing of trousers. Even the ‘tradition’ of wearing a kilt without underwear is something of a myth, derived from the one area of kilt wearing where rules and regulations do apply, i.e. for the kilt as a military dress uniform. In civilian life prior to WW2, it was fairly normal for some sort of underwear to be worn with a kilt, as kiltmakers usually supplied a couple of pairs of kilt ‘drawers’, in a matching tartan, with each kilt. This was probably because, in those days, men’s underwear was almost invariably white, which would not have matched the usually dark tartans of the kilts. These days of course, dark coloured men’s briefs are common, so specially made kilt underwear is not necessary.

As for Welsh and Cornish kilts, these only differ from Scottish kilts in the use of Welsh and Cornish tartans. There are many such non-Scottish tartans. In addition to Cornish, there are also Devon and Somerset tartans and a Northumbrian check in England and several State tartans in the USA. Kilts can be made from any of these, and they are just as much kilts as those made from any Scottish tartan, as are the solid colour Irish kilts, regardless of any (self proclaimed) expert’s concocted ‘rules’.

I therefore do not see the need for all potential kilt wearers to learn any set of ‘rules’, before they first don a kilt, especially if they are not intending to attend a very formal function, where a particular style of kilt dress is requested.

Rob

[The Kilted Chef]

If I wanted to fit in, to conform to society, to follow other's rules, I'd be wearing pants.

From the information I've read in books and found on web sites, many of the "dress code rules" were codified in the Victorian era - a very conservative time. Remember smoking jackets and the like to keep the tobacco smoke off the men's clothing so as not to "offend" the ladies. I wasn't there, so I can't comment first hand...

Bear, I agree. I don't wear the kilt such-and-such a way out of disrespect of the Highland dress, but rather to express my own individuality.

[phil h]

When Scotty Thompson wrote the guidebook "So You're going to Wear the Kilt" he was thinking in terms of the correct way to wear Highland attire. I think he would be amazed now to see how far from the Highlands the kilt has come, but I think he would have approved of the new trends in casual kilting, knowing that different rules apply for wearing denim jeans than for black tie, even though both involve trousers. If you are going to wear Highland attire, i.e. with all the accessories that includes, his book is still a pretty good way to avoid embarrasing yourself in front of real Scots. If some of the guests at the "Dressed to Kilt" affair in NY had read it they might have avoided some of the more ghastly embarrasments.

good point

[Rhino]

I have to say that I saw a guy in a kilt liked it, thought about it for a while, bought one and put it on. It wasn't until I found kilt sites and forums that I realised I should be worried about it, embarrased because I might have the length not quite right or any other reasons why I should have doubts about wearing it. I wear a kilt in a different way that I wear everything else. I stand taller, swagger not walk, and feel like the dogs' wherever I am. Don't spoil it, if folk want rules to make 'em feel secure fine, if folk want to throw a kilt on in the morning with a pair of trainers fine, there's room enough for everyone.. The main thing is ENJOY IT!!!
Cheers Rhino

[bikercelt1]

When I studied music the first "rule" was "You've got to learn the rules so that you can break them effectively and creatively" otherwise what you have is just anarchy. I don't figure I have to live by somebody else's rules but I sure better be able to explain myself if somebody asks. I don't want to be one of those doofuses that proudly steps out to strut his stuff wearing his kilt backwards!

There is another reason that I believe in knowing what the rules are, I've lived too long in the biker world to think that you can flaunt an ignorance of the rules without consequences. Sometimes very serious consequences. If you're wearing the wrong patch on your back in the wrong place or the wrong way it can cost you your life. I don't think some wild eyed higlander is going to pull his dirk and run me through 'cause I'm not wearing my kilt right, but I owe him the respect to at least know the difference.

1) Learn the rules. 2)Know the rules. 3)Break the rules.

Jamie

[Alaskan]

Rob,
I first started to really consider the guidelines for kiltwear when I read that the kilt is closed left over right, so the opening is on the right side, unless it is a woman in highland dancing, in which case the kilt should be worn right over left.

I thought it was interesting that the kilt had a proper way to be closed, and that that way would be easy for me to remember as it is the same way that a kimono is closed.

With kimono it is closed that way because the front of the kimono was used as a pocket and with most people being right handed, having the opening on the right made sense.

As I said in a previous post, wearing the right side on top is the way they bury people (or in modern times cremate them). To wear the kimono wrong would offend many Japanese people. To wear their traditional clothing without having the decency to learn about it's history and traditions and the proper way to wear it would be disrespectful.

I think the same applies to kilts. There are some guidelines for wearing the kilt. The pleats go in the back, for one. I think it is funny how many people say that because the guidelines were made in Victorian times that they aren't really tradtional and don't need to be followed. It is especially amusing if these people are American or Canadian. Our countries aren't much older than these traditions. Yet, our countries already have unique traditions. Do these traditions not matter because they started in the late 1700's?

I don't think I am as stuffy as I am being percieved to be. I have said many times that I think it is OK to break the guidelines, but you should learn them first. Also, I wouldn't go around telling people, "Hey, you know you're wearing your kilt wrong?"

A lot of people on this forum get all bent out of shape if they merely here the word "rules" or "guidelines." Like those words are offensive, and anyone using those words is a facist trying to opress them. To quote Bear: "Get a grip."

I have never once said that the guidelines should be followed for casual wear. Also, I never go into forums where people are talking about casual wear and say "That isn't following the guidelines." However, the anti-rulers are quick to jump into any discussion and say that the guidelines have no value.

However, even the anti-rulers have their own set of rules. Even if they don't know what those rules are. I don't think anyone on this forum would ever wear a skirt. That means in your mind there are rules determining what is a skirt and what is a kilt. There are rules about how a kilt is worn and how a skirt is worn. Just because some people follow the more traditional, stricter guidelines is no reason to tell them that their guidelines are worthless.

[bikercelt1]

One other thought that I forgot to include in my previous diatribe, if you learn the "rules" first you won't have to reinvent the wheel, you can spend your time refining what works or changing what doesn't.

Jamie

[Kilt'n'Khuk]

Thank you, Rob!

and to keep this post on the original topic (sort of), I own two sporrrrans.