A trans-Atlantic thing?

[McMurdo]

Trefor I think the Rouche tie issue is yet another Trans Atlantic Issue. I only know of two gentlemen this side who wear them, Dee and myself. I gave Dee two rouche ties for Christmas and saw him wearing one in the pictures from the Ferintosh Burns supper. I've never heard anyone telling me it was off balance either by the way.

[fluter]

(never heard the phrase "four-in-hand" before!)

Four-in-hand is the knot in your scrunchie tie, or my long tie (except when it's a half-Windsor).

I shall be wearing a bow tie on Saturday rather than a scrunchie with my Welsh PC but it won't be a black one - it will be the matching tartan of my St Davids National Cilt.

And while I might not have the je n'sais quoi to pull that off, I have every confidence that you will, Trefor!

Generally speaking, I'll buy the conventional wisdom about the 5-button vest for the long ties. However your pix with the PC and scroonchie tie did not strike me amiss.

[slohairt]

From what I have observed in my years (all 33 of them), is a steady decline in formality on both sides of the Atlantic. I would dare say that this side of the pond has declined a bit faster. It's a shame, really. So many people turn up at formal events wearing jeans, T-shirts, sandals, and other inappropriate wear. If asked why, they would reply "It's what I'm comfortable in." That may be so, but it is disrespectful. It is also selfish. You are suggesting that your comfort is more important than respect for the host. My mother taught me that one wears his or her best to show the host that you feel the event is important enough to look your best.

It's not just the kilted world, Saxon wear fares no better. How many men under 40 are unable to tie a tie? How many don't own (and have never owned) a jacket? How many don't own suitable dress shoes? Many of my peers fall into this category, unfortunately. It isn't completely their fault, I partly blame those who came before for not passing on these skills and expectations to the next generation. But once you are an adult, there are no longer any excuses. You must educate yourself. You could also blame such institutions as Casual Fridays, which have grown to encompass every day of the week it seems, and promotes some very inappropriate attire.

Another of my mother's golden rules is this: It is generally better to be overdressed than under-dressed. (Within reason, of course.) If you show up to an event wearing a nice suit (or, even better, a kilted suit!) and everyone else is wearing a jogging outfit, they will feel foolish, not you. If you show up wearing a jogging outfit, and everyone else is wearing a suit, you will feel like a fool.

[McClef]

Four-in-hand is the knot in your scrunchie tie, or my long tie (except when it's a half-Windsor).



And while I might not have the je n'sais quoi to pull that off, I have every confidence that you will, Trefor!

Generally speaking, I'll buy the conventional wisdom about the 5-button vest for the long ties. However your pix with the PC and scroonchie tie did not strike me amiss.

Thanks for the clarification fluter - must be another of those expressions that only lives on on side of the "pond."

I also have a flat cap in the tartan but even I would not see that as appropriate for a PC - see I do have my limits!

From what I have observed in my years (all 33 of them), is a steady decline in formality on both sides of the Atlantic. I would dare say that this side of the pond has declined a bit faster. It's a shame, really.

Fashion designers are often responsible for this but there are more of them over here - Paris and Milan seem to influence the whole world. And when celebrities break conventions at formal events it also encourages others to follow.

It's not just the kilted world, Saxon wear fares no better. How many men under 40 are unable to tie a tie? How many don't own (and have never owned) a jacket? How many don't own suitable dress shoes? Many of my peers fall into this category, unfortunately. It isn't completely their fault, I partly blame those who came before for not passing on these skills and expectations to the next generation. But once you are an adult, there are no longer any excuses. You must educate yourself. You could also blame such institutions as Casual Fridays, which have grown to encompass every day of the week it seems, and promotes some very inappropriate attire.

Well my above comments cover this aspect, more than the kilted world actually.

I recently saw a rerun of the Queen's State visit to the USA and was impressed to see President Bush in white tie and tails for the occasion, despite being " a casual kind of guy." Our own Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, for years attended the Lord Mayor's banquet when he was Chancellor or the Exchequer, in a business suit.

As to casual Fridays, I don't know what you can do short of imposing some king of dress code which surely defeats the whole point. In my last place of employ they were only once per month and you paid £1 for the privilege which went to charity - even though it was a call centre and the public couldn't see us, we had to be smart the rest of the time (except when working weekends or Bank Holidays. I am pleased to report that we had a Scot who wore his kilt every casual Friday!

Another of my mother's golden rules is this: It is generally better to be overdressed than under-dressed. (Within reason, of course.) If you show up to an event wearing a nice suit (or, even better, a kilted suit!) and everyone else is wearing a jogging outfit, they will feel foolish, not you. If you show up wearing a jogging outfit, and everyone else is wearing a suit, you will feel like a fool.

Excellent sentiments. What is over and under dressed on certain occasions is certainly creating an interesting discussion.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Thanks for the clarification fluter - must be another of those expressions that only lives on on side of the "pond."

The "four-in-hand tie" has it's roots in England... It was the favoured knot of coachmen who could handle a four-in-hand team of horses. The immediate forerunner of today's necktie was "invented" in 1880 by the students of Exeter College, Oxford, who tied the bands of their straw hats around their necks with a simple knot, thus inventing the first Club Tie. On June 25th of that same year they ordered proper neckties from their tailor, setting the fashion for "club" or school" ties. By 1900 this fashion had caught on like a house on fire and Macclesfield became the center of necktie production for the whole of the United Kingdom. In 1924 the necktie took on it's present form (and method of construction) and has remained virtually unchanged since.

[SteveB]

I have not been to a formal event other than my wedding for twenty-five years. I outgrew my PC kit five years ago. Most of the events that I attend in tartan kilt, flashes tie, hose, polished black kilt belt, sporran, and shoes, I am considered by the others to be "overdressed". My next acquisition will be a jacket to wear with the kilt. After that, a vest. Presently when I go to events where one is expected to dress up a notch, I wear the best I have. The one time that was "formal attire", I simply added a tweed jacket. The jacket was not cut for wear with a kilt, but was the best I could put together on short notice. The sponsor told me after the event that I was better kitted than all the penguins. I hope she was being honest. The purpose of my attendance was a presentation to the group. I think the comment might have been envy though... Most of the young ladies present wanted to be photographed with the kilted gentleman. I have many of these photographs in my album. I really would like to be able to do a notch or two up, but I need to stop growing (horizontally). Over ten years ago I outgrew my two suits, as long as I have kilts, I do not intend to replace them.

[Erisianmonkey]

The decline of formal wear is indeed sad. Now, I am the god of über casual, and a self admitted sloppy dresser. (I do, however, do it with style) If invited to a formal event, I would wear formal wear. If I couldn't round up the formal wear, I would decline the invitation. I couldn't bear the idea of disrespecting someone who invited me to a formal function enough to ignore their dress code. Then again, I'm probably one of the strangest cats you'll ever meet.

[Ian.MacAllan]

. . . My mother taught me . . .

One of the things I learned at my mother's knee (and occasionally across my father's) is that there really is a covenant of hospitality recognised by responsible people, and its content is this: just as a host assumes the duty of arranging matters for the pleasure of his guests, as well as he can, so each guest assumes the duty of contributing to the pleasure of the host and all the other guests, as well as he can. This involves both appropriate deportment and apprpriate attire. Anyone who is unwilling to assume this duty ought at least to have the courtesy to regret instead of accepting the invitation.

.

[McClef]

By 1900 this fashion had caught on like a house on fire and Macclesfield became the center of necktie production for the whole of the United Kingdom. In 1924 the necktie took on it's present form (and method of construction) and has remained virtually unchanged since.

Macclesfield is my home town and I therefore am aware of its reputation for silk ties!

But I still had not heard that term before!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Macclesfield is my home town and I therefore am aware of its reputation for silk ties!

But I still had not heard that term before!

You are in very good company! My great friend John McGrath can tie his neck tie with six different knots (not all at the same time!) and each knot has a specific name unknown to me, but well within John's ken. Phew! I only knew of the four-in-hand because that was the knot we tied at school.