I picked up a second-hand P.C. What else do I need to buy to make the outfit work?

[KennethSime]

I got lucky this weekend, and ended up with a Prince Charlie in my size for $56 total. A minor victory here - I first offered $50, which was denied, and ended up winning the auction for just $36. An additional $20 in fees and shipping brought it to my door today. :-)

The garment has a made in Scotland label (the only label), and the material feels nice enough, but the buttons are rather cheap (seem to be chromed plastic or maybe pewter).

So, here's the deal: I live in California. Even after COVID, I will likely wear this jacket once per year or less - I've really only had one occasion to wear a tux so far in my life, and don't foresee many more when you get right down to it. There's a reason I jumped on the $50 eBay find, rather than ordering new from Scotland. ;-) Still, I'd like to put together the rest of the outfit, ideally with pieces that may work in other use cases as well. Further, I'd like to compromise in a few areas, without looking plain silly. I wonder which of these compromises you think I could get away with, and what might be too far?

• Shirt. I'll need a wing-collar tux shirt, not just a regular poplin dress shirt, correct?
• Do I need a bowtie? Can I wear a regular wool tie with a 3-button waistcoat? How about a 5-button? I'm not a fan of the rouche tie, but I've never tried a bow tie.
• Sporran. I really don't want to buy a fur sporran, and the faux fur sporrans just look cheap to me. USA Kilts offers a few leather dress sporrans, and I think I'd be ok with a victorian-style horsehair sporran. What I'd prefer to do is a hunting sporran, but I don't think these are "classy" enough. Is that right? If you weren't going to go for a fur or sealskin sporran, what would you go for?
• Shoes. I have particular wide feet (like 5E), and even "wide" fitting grille brogues are a no-go for me. I could get custom shoes made, but would rather not spend $500 on those right now. I have found a pair black of cap-toe oxfords that fit comfortably without looking like clown shoes, but are oxfords just not classy enough for a P.C.?
• Hose. Can I just wear some nice HoE lewis hose? I think diced hose or argyll hose are very nice, but I don't think I'll be spending $200 on them anytime soon.

Finally, a jacket fit question. This is only the second formal jacket I've purchased, and it seems to fit quite well - better perhaps than my tweed braemar. The P.C. is a 44L, the tweed is a 46L. I measure 44", and I was under the impression that most Americans should order 1 size up when it came to Scottish-made kilt jackets. However, this one fits so well I'm thinking I might jump on one of the second-hand 44L tweeds that are listed at ministry of tartan - 44L is a much more common size. What do you think? Do you usually need "one size up," or do you order your jackets as-measured?

Again, thank you for humoring me. I'm new to formal clothing period, and pretty new to kilts as well. I appreciate any advice you might have to offer.

[McMurdo]

This was the first PC I bought, I have a wing tip tux shirt, a clip on bow tie, the sporran is a hunting style with the chrome top the hose were what I got from the kilt hire place the shoes were what I had the time, the "sgian dubh" was a $4 Ebay buy



This would be fine for any number of events, however it does look like every other outfit in the room.

After wearing the kilt for some years I've changed my approach to the PC this is my current rig a lay down collar tuxedo shirt from Brooks Brothers with a monogram, a self tie bow tie, the sporran is a horsehair from 1911, the hose are Argyll made for the tartan I designed, the shoes are buckle brogues with antique silver buckles, the sgian dubh is a family heirloom with silver fittings and a cairngorm. I prefer this outfit much more than the first one




Having said all that if I have my choice I'd rather wear my velvet doublet also from 1911, everything else is the same as for the second outfit, but I know with certainty that I'll be the only one in the room wearing this.

[Micrographia]

Always fun to get a good Ebay score . My 2 cents...

- a tux shirt is good but a wing collar isn't needed, though if you want one go for it. I have a marcella shirt with a turn down collar that gets used with PC or evening suit and a pleated front with a wing collar if I'm feeling particularly formal in a PC (not often).
- a self-tie black bow tie is best especially with a wing collar. I wouldn't wear a regular tie with a PC or a tux shirt full stop, or a 5 button waistcoat with a PC. Both look strange to me and I don't think the PC is cut for them. I'm with you on not being keen on the ruche cravat look.
- anything other than a silver metal cantle and fur or hair sporran looks odd to me with a PC, though I know opinions vary, especially with regards to hunting sporrans. In general I prefer not to wear something that is acceptable daywear as formal evening wear (aside from black brogues and coloured hose) and a hunting sporran looks like a fancy day sporran to me . I might wear a horsehair with my PC or Montrose if the event included dancing
- you don't need ghillie brogues. Your Oxfords will work well, though personally I'd keep an eye open for a pair of black Oxford brogues for day and evening wear double duty (also useful when you're not in Highland dress).
- solid coloured hose of decent quality will be fine.

As already noted, you'll be wanting a formal sgian. Other details could include shirt studs and cufflinks. I'm UK based so can't comment on US jacket sizing . In general though fits can vary with cut and maker so buying without trying it on will always be chancy.

Best regards, EEM.

[Jock Scot]

Always fun to get a good Ebay score . My 2 cents...

- a tux shirt is good but a wing collar isn't needed, though if you want one go for it.
- a self-tie black bow tie is best. I wouldn't wear a regular tie with a PC or a tux shirt full stop. Looks strange.
- anything other than a silver metal cantle and fur sporran looks odd to me with a PC. Horsehair or full mask I could live with as alternatives.
- you don't need ghillie brogues. Your Oxfords will work fine if well-polished, though I'd keep an eye open for a pair of black Oxford brogues.
- solid colour hose of decent quality will do fine. Colour depends on your kilt, mine is predominantly green and red hose work well.

As already noted, you'll be wanting a formal sgian. Other details could include shirt studs and cufflinks. I'm UK based so can't comment on US jacket fit . In general though fits can vary with cut and maker so buying without trying it on will always be chancy.

Best regards, EEM.

Sage advice here!

Many tend to overdress for most black tie events and the above advice will do you perfectly well for anything other than the most formal of formal evening events which are actually rare. Even then, care needs to be taken.

Don't believe me? Many won't!

Google ---- Michael Gove kilt-----and look at the images you will see Mr Gove a Scot, a British Government Minister and long time kilt wearer escorting a lady to a State Banquet given in honour of the American President and the First Lady at Buckingham Palace recently. The un-kilted gentlemen present will be wearing white tie but, Mr Gove is in his kilt attire and is dressed almost exactly as Micrographia suggests and is entirely suitably dressed for the auspicious occasion.

Perhaps some cleaver person here could provide a link to the picture?

[Tomo]

I think Micrographia nailed it - the only thing I would add is if you don't want to go with a fur sporran, your best bet would be a hunting style sporran with a metal cantle.

[gsmacleod]

Google ---- Michael Gove kilt-----and look at the images you will see Mr Gove a Scot, a British Government Minister and long time kilt wearer escorting a lady to a State Banquet given in honour of the American President and the First Lady at Buckingham Palace recently. The un-kilted gentlemen present will be wearing white tie but, Mr Gove is in his kilt attire and is dressed almost exactly as Micrographia suggests and is entirely suitably dressed for the auspicious occasion.

Here's the image that Jock mentioned.

2.43301157~2.jpg

Shane

[Jock Scot]

Thank you Shane.

[ktk1961]

Here's the image that Jock mentioned.

2.43301157~2.jpg

Shane

He looks great and I agree the outfit is impeccably put together. Question ... is he wearing his sporran a bit low?

[OC Richard]

I got lucky this weekend, and ended up with a Prince Charlie in my size for $56 total.

That's super! A man after my own heart.

BTW I think that's around what I paid for my first Prince Charlie. I was 19 or 20, walking around a Highland Games, and there was a vendor whose promised tables hadn't arrived, so his merchandise was laid out on the dirt. There, filthy on the underside, and with a clear shoe-print on the upper side, was an otherwise fine-looking Prince Charlie, which fit me perfectly. Also in the dirt was a seal-skin and silver-plate Prince Charlie style Evening sporran. I bought both for around $100 as I recall.

the buttons are rather cheap (seem to be chromed plastic or maybe pewter).

The buttons on standard Scottish-made Evening jackets are nearly always the same, chrome plated metal, but which metal I don't know, perhaps brass.

I will likely wear this jacket once per year or less - I've really only had one occasion to wear a tux so far in my life, and don't foresee many more...

For sure California is that way! However back in my University days I wore my Prince Charlie quite a bit: my girlfriend was a concert violinist and we were always attending posh events. And being a piper, in the days before The Coming Of The Black Argyll, I often wore the Prince Charlie for gigs.

I'll need a wing-collar tux shirt...

Do I need a bowtie? ...not a fan of the rouche tie...

I really don't want to buy a fur sporran... If you weren't going to go for a fur or sealskin sporran, what would you go for?

Can I just wear some nice HoC Lewis hose? I think diced hose or Argyll hose are very nice, but I don't think I'll be spending $200 on them anytime soon.

This gets into the question of traditional Highland Dress, what looks proper to someone steeped in it, and whether or not you want to follow those notions.

I always like knowing about the history and milieu of things, and as such I've collected quite a few things about Victorian and 20th century Highland Dress.

The first thing to know about the Prince Charlie (or "coatee" as it was originally and correctly called) is that it's a 20th century invention, quite early in the century. In 1910 it was being called "new" and in the 1930s it was still spoken of as something suitable for fashionable slim young men, and not suited for mature gents.

From the get-go the Prince Charlie was treated like the existing Evening jacket, the Doublet, made in black, blue, and green, and worn with the Evening Dress of the early 20th century:

-bow tie or lace jabot

-low-cut 3-button waistcoat selfcoloured, tartan, red, or buff

-Evening sporran which meant either seal-skin or long white hair, with silver top

-tartan or diced hose

-buckled shoes.

Here, on the left, are two illustrations of the then relatively new Prince Charlie in a 1930s catalogue. Note that the Prince Charlie is a bit more dressed-up that we're used to, by one gent, with lace jabot, tartan waistcoat, and castellated hose.

The other gent is wearing the Prince Charlie as it was usually worn, with black bow tie and ordinary diced or tartan hose.



At the time the Prince Charlie was introduced, and through most of the 20th century, it wouldn't have been considered proper to wear a long tie, or go sans waistcoat, or wear a leather sporran, or plain hose, or ghillies (unless fitted with buckles).

So that's the background, the tradition. Personally I think buckled shoes, tartan or diced hose, and an Evening sporran are called for with Evening Dress.

But how do life-long kilt-wearers in Scotland wear the Prince Charlie nowadays? Let's see. Here's a group of men, I believe all of them Scottish born and raised, all of them kilt-wearers since they were young lads.

Notice that buckled shoes are gone, and half of the men are wearing plain hose. However all are wearing black bow ties and the traditionally called-for Evening sporrans.

(The man wearing buckled shoes is wearing the Doublet, the older form of Evening jacket.)

There's another thing your eye might catch: one man is wearing the higher-cut 5-button waistcoat generally worn with the Argyll jacket. (He has an MBE he can dress how he likes!)



I mentioned the Prince Charlie coatee and Prince Charlie sporran I bought in the dirt as a youngster. Here I am wearing my new finery! That was my perception, as a relatively new kilt-wearer in the late 1970s, of how the Prince Charlie should be worn.



Were I to wear a Prince Charlie now, it would be something like this. (I don't have the proper waistcoat.)

[ktk1961]

I noticed that all six of these men are wearing a version of Ghillie Brogues (even the gent with the buckles) with the long laces tied up the lower leg. Personally, I like what they add to a formal outfit ... although there are many in the "rabble" who would ardently disagree.