Sgian Dubh and the Church

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

What I'm trying to say is that you are always, always going to find someone who doesn't like what you are doing, no matter what it is. That's just the nature of people. What you have to decide is where you personally are going to draw the line at appeasing everyone.

Well said, and I couldn't agree more. Asking (or telling) one not to wear a sgian dubh to church, or caving in when asked, smacks of the sort of politically correct nannyism that, in my opinion, generally weakens and dilutes our western society.

The fundamental question is not about the safety or security of the congregation, but rather whether you, or I, can be trusted with a knife barely adequate to peel an apple.

Let me put it to you in another context. What, gentlemen, would be your reaction be if, on entering your church, someone approached your wife and told her she could not enter the house of God wearing her fur coat?

[The Guy in the Kilt at UC]

...Let me put it to you in another context. What, gentlemen, would be your reaction be if, on entering your church, someone approached your wife and told her she could not enter the house of God wearing her fur coat?

I would wonder how my wife got a fur coat

[bikercelt1]

Some times I have a sgian dubh and some times I don't. It all depends on how I feel when I'm getting dressed that morning and if I'm forgetful or not. There was a fellow, now deceased, at my church who had been in a pipe band who would take me to task if I didn't have a sgian dubh. The only time anyone in my congregation asked about "the knife in the sock" I explained that ancient traditions of Highland hospitality required leaving ones weapons at the door when you entered a house and placing the "black Knife" in the sock was a ceremonial way of showing you were unarmed. A bit of an exaggeration I know, but he was delighted with the explanation and loved sharing it with anyone who would listen.

Jamie

[ThistleDown]

Well said, and I couldn't agree more. Asking (or telling) one not to wear a sgian dubh to church, or caving in when asked, smacks of the sort of politically correct nannyism that, in my opinion, generally weakens and dilutes our western society.

The fundamental question is not about the safety or security of the congregation, but rather whether you, or I, can be trusted with a knife barely adequate to peel an apple.

A story to tell. In July the Standing Council of Chiefs met in Edinburgh at the invitation of the Scottish Parliament. The meeting was within the chambers usually set aside for those we elect and who must, surely, be just a tad more likely to need a secure environment than the congregation in a suburban church.

We were asked by Parliament's Presiding Officer to leave at home anything that might be thought to be a "weapon". A strange request, but a number of overseas guests had been invited and I suppose it was thought that one or two might appear with dirks, or swords, or battleaxes or something.

As you can imagine, the magnetometers played havoc with belt plates, shoe buckles, one-, two- and three-feathered badges, kilt pins and, of course, sgian dughs. Well, all passed through as acceptable. No kilt pin or bonnet badge or sgian dubh was thought to be a weapon.

Now that's the parliament in Scotland, of course, and this thread is about a church in America; but isn't the basic issue here about fear? Not respect for the wishes of the congregation or some legitimate threat to its safety, but the need for a group of people to be so fearful of its personal security that it must tell one of its number what to wear or not to wear to a service of worship. When no threat has been made. How very sad.

Oh, yes, on the way in there was a prominent family head just in front of me who had to empty his pockets, but the Swiss Army knife he had was accepted, too.

[Bigkahuna]

I have been attending church for a long, long time and I simply cannot recall any rules ever being stated about wearing weapons in church. As far as I can tell it was simply left up to the common sense of the individual. In all that time, I never recall seeing any item other than the occasional sgian dubh,which might be misconstrued as a weapon.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

The sgian dubh isn't a weapon. It began life as a stalker's tool, a wee knife used for skinning game. When kilted, and working in the field, the stalker would tuck the sgian dubh into the top of his stocking so he didn't have to fumble around on the ground looking for it. This skinning-knife in the stocking became the ex-officio badge of the stalker and game keeper, and gave them a wee bit of status as "outdoorsmen".

The myth that the sgian dubh is worn in the stocking to show one is unarmed, and comes in peace, is just that: a myth. The reality is that it became fashionable in the 19th century for gentlemen to wear a sgian dubh with their day and evening wear attire to show that they had been out stalking deer, in much the same way that a German would put a gamsbart in his Tyrolean hat to show he had been out shooting Chamois.

The name, sgian dubh (literally, black knife) has nothing to do with stealth or concealablity, but rather refers to the blade which was usually stained nearly black by its constant, and indifferent, rough use in the field.

[macwilkin]

The sgian dubh isn't a weapon. It began life as a stalker's tool, a wee knife used for skinning game. When kilted, and working in the field, the stalker would tuck the sgian dubh into the top of his stocking so he didn't have to fumble around on the ground looking for it. This skinning-knife in the stocking became the ex-officio badge of the stalker and game keeper, and gave them a wee bit of status as "outdoorsmen".

The myth that the sgian dubh is worn in the stocking to show one is unarmed, and comes in peace, is just that: a myth. The reality is that it became fashionable in the 19th century for gentlemen to wear a sgian dubh with their day and evening wear attire to show that they had been out stalking deer, in much the same way that a German would put a gamsbart in his Tyrolean hat to show he had been out shooting Chamois.

The name, sgian dubh (literally, black knife) has nothing to do with stealth or concealablity, but rather refers to the blade which was usually stained nearly black by its constant, and indifferent, rough use in the field.

And here's the gold star post for this thread. Well said!

T.

[Wompet]

The myth that the sgian dubh is worn in the stocking to show one is unarmed, and comes in peace, is just that: a myth.

But ... but that's been said so many time, in so many place, that it must be true!


If I were a regular church-goer, I might wear a sgian dubh, or I might not.
In the church that I grew up in, I think that it would be perfectly acceptable.
I think of my father, who hardly goes anywhere without a pocket knife, and when he got ready to go to church, he still had a knife. It was a clean, brightly polished knife, different than the well-worn, dull-colored knife he took to work every day, but it was still a working blade.

[Doftya]

Just wondering, if there are objections to knives in church, should the church kitchen be renamed the armory and kept under tight lock and key?

[bikercelt1]

The myth that the sgian dubh is worn in the stocking to show one is unarmed, and comes in peace, is just that: a myth.

Well! I feel chagrined! I knew I was exaggerating but I had no idea I was perpetuating a myth. I guess it just goes to show that there's always something new to learn.

Jamie