Sgian Dubh and the Church

[bigdad1]

Mind you "our"churches are, on the whole, several centuries older than "yours". I bet you even have heating that works in "yours"!

Yes most of our churches do have heat. We are a very progressive society. However the religion practiced in those churches isn't any older in Scotland that it is here in heathen land. Nor is the basic requirement of the golden rule. I take that to mean that if your sock knife upsets people you should divest yourself of it just as you would hope (expect?) that someone else would respect your fears or apprehensions. Ultimately it isn't whether you can wear a knife in church but whether you should respect your fellow man. It doesn't matter if the "black knife" story is myth or fact. It matters that sometimes we must put our own egos (and if dressing in a kilt isn't ego) aside and just plain be nice to people. In my not so humble opinion that is the bottom line and how I would approach it.

[EagleJCS]

Good L.., er, I mean good gracious me. Do churches have kitchens?

I would say MOST churches do have a kitchen on the grounds somewhere close by. Some denominations have built 'fellowship halls' (there are other names used in different areas) that connect to their sanctuaries in one way or another - below, behind, beside, rarely above. I doubt you'd find many worship spaces that have the kitchen/fellowship area in the same location. Some churches have schools, which then need a cafeteria to feed the children. Otherwise they probably wouldn't have a kitchen.

There are some small country churches in this region that are just the sanctuary and nothing else. (Even the pastor doesn't live on/near the church).

Now, as to wearing a knife to services - I've done it on occasion as a Scout (folding/utility knife in a belt pouch). I've never had occasion to use a fixed blade knife as a Scout, so I don't wear one. I haven't been to church wearing my kilt, but I probably wouldn't wear my sgian dhu because I know the community and the congregation (most folks 'round here don't wear a kilt very often). I really don't know how it (a knife) would be perceived, but I'd prefer to avoid the controversy - the kilt would raise enough of a stir.

[Phil]

I have to say here that the sgian dhubh was not designed ever to be something to peel an apple, sharpen a pencil with or help with manicuring. It was carried secretely as a weapon of last resort to kill in the event that other weapons were taken away and was not designed in a modern peaceful society where we all respect each others life and liberty. If someone disarmed you and was about to kill you you pulled out your sgian dubh and stuck them - and hoped that was an end of them. Not a nice scenario but then life in those days wasn't. Highland dress contains many such hangovers of less civilised times, dirks, swords, pistols etc. but the only one to remain generally is the sgian dhubh.
As I understand it the Christian faith, and I believe other monotheistic religions, have as part of their fundamental belief the view that "thou shalt not kill" and therefore to carry a weapon designed to do just such a thing must fly in the face of the belief being followed in a place of worship.

[BoldHighlander]

As I understand it the Christian faith, and I believe other monotheistic religions, have as part of their fundamental belief the view that "thou shalt not kill" and therefore to carry a weapon designed to do just such a thing must fly in the face of the belief being followed in a place of worship.

This could skate dangerously close to the edge of the rules, but in the old Hebrew text it actually said "Thou shalt not commit murder". Anyhoo....

I recall the busy body who once confronted me about my sleeved tattoos, saying "you know what it says in the Bible about tattoos don't you?" My reply was "yes, and that's between God & I, isn't it?"

[JRB]

I have to say here that the sgian dhubh was not designed ever to be something to peel an apple, sharpen a pencil with or help with manicuring. It was carried secretely as a weapon of last resort to kill in the event that other weapons were taken away and was not designed in a modern peaceful society where we all respect each others life and liberty. If someone disarmed you and was about to kill you you pulled out your sgian dubh and stuck them - and hoped that was an end of them. Not a nice scenario but then life in those days wasn't. Highland dress contains many such hangovers of less civilised times, dirks, swords, pistols etc. but the only one to remain generally is the sgian dhubh.
As I understand it the Christian faith, and I believe other monotheistic religions, have as part of their fundamental belief the view that "thou shalt not kill" and therefore to carry a weapon designed to do just such a thing must fly in the face of the belief being followed in a place of worship.

Actually, the sgian dubh almost certainly evolved from the sgian achlais, or armpit knife, as a short utility and knife. Knives of it's type were caried by all manner of people from serfs to royalty from antiquity to modern times all over the British isles and Europe. I'm sure it was employed as a last resort weapon on more than one occassion (part of it's utility) but that was not it's only or primary purpose. If it were purely a weapon and nothing else it would have much more likely evolved into a double edged blade.

[wildrover]

Now, as to wearing a knife to services - I've done it on occasion as a Scout (folding/utility knife in a belt pouch). I've never had occasion to use a fixed blade knife as a Scout, so I don't wear one.

That's interesting you say that...I remember an old Scoutmaster of mine having quite a prejudice against fixed-blade knives...took a few of us to task for it, as I recall...but to this day I can't figure out why it was such a big deal . Other than the consideration for space, they're about the same when a folder is opened...and for that matter, my Schrade is larger than most sgians, when open...with a clip-point it more resembles a hunting knife, and has no end of utility. I'd get the same use from a small fixed-blade and have my eye on a couple which I'd stick down my sock...very utilitarian, very well-crafted little things...small drop points, and a couple clip points, 2" to 4" blades, rounded out for fingers, some with a small guard, others very sleek. Nice stuff...not the usual sgian I know, but then I guess I don't favor the "traditional" shape of them, and I use my knives for various knife things...I suppose I could stick a pair of scissors down my sock, but it wouldn't be quite the same ...wouldn't do that any more than I'd cram a Bowie down my hose (or wear it to church).

...Tho it'd make for a funny picture, I s'pose...

Phil, I think I'll tell 'em the other story!

I know the original question was "should I wear it in church", but I'm getting a very interesting general sense of how it's perceived, and how it's presented, regardless of location.

Whaddaya bet, if you're a respected, known, mature, courteous member of your congregation, nobody bats an eye?

-Sean

[Howard Clark]

American churches certainly do have kitchens, most of them. Another cultural difference, I suspect ?

[bchunter]

I am a very regular church-goer, and wear a kilt on occasion. At first I did not sport a sgian and was very often asked why I was not wearing one. When I started wearing one, I had one fellow question why I had it, only to have his question answered by another fellow in a suit that produced a folding pocket knife that dwarfed my sgian and proclaiming he always carried it and a sgian was no different. No one else ever asked, but I do get questions when in a business suit why I'm not kilted.

[SteveB]

I wear my kilt to church every Sunday and spend most of my time in a classroom teaching first and second scholars about the Worlds religions. I have never been without the sgian dubh. It lives in my hose. The edge is functional, it cuts open cardboard boxes, it slits open envelopes, makes short work of string, and slices up the apples we share. Whether the sgian dubh has a history of having been a weapon or not, it is perceived here as part of the tradition of high hose, garter ties, sporran, kilt pin, or cap badge. All of the gents who wear the kilt to church wear the sgain dubh. In this I am not alone as generally there are at least ten kilted men in service.

[Panache]

With all due respect gents

I have on my key chain a Leatherman Micra

It has a small sharp blade for cutting stuff

Better yet it has a small pair of extremely sharp scissors!

Better yet it has a small Phillips screwdriver bit that opens up a myriad of my kid's toys.

I like knives and swords

a lot

Those X Markers that have seen the adornments on my library walls know this.

However I will pit my Leatherman Micra against any sgian dubh for anything outside combat.

I like to wear the sgian dubh, but I am not bound to always wear it.

When it is right I will

When it is not right I won't

The claim that one has to carry one in all situations for want of a sharp edge isn't really that forceful an argument.

There are certainly options that might not upset other folks.

Cheers

Jamie

(Somewhere the much esteemed Rab Gordon has just put me on his "naughty" list! )