Ghillie brogues - why the dislike and resentment..?

[OC Richard]

There are no margins in the CM, it's a small hand-written document and the writing fills the whole of the page. The MacLean entry is at the bottom of p.13

Attachment 43463

Sir Thomas Dick Lauder didn't make a copy of the Cromarty Ms, the brothers made one for him which Charles Allen illustrated with plates, something missing from the Cromarty version.

Thanks for the clarifications, I've not seen the originals and I'm depending on whatever sources I can find.

In Scotland's Forged Tartans Donald C Stewart writes

It is worthy to remark that the entry for this tartan had been crowded into the lower margin of p13 of the Cromarty MS...the writing is more cramped and in a weaker ink that the rest of the page; the reference to "the quhite sett" will have been a slip.

When Sir Thomas Dick Lauder was transcribing the Cromarty MS in 1829 he passed directly from MacLauchlan to Gordon as if MacLean had not at that time been inserted.

About Lauder doing a transcription, in an 1829 letter Lauder wrote to Sir Walter Scott, quoted in The History of Highland Dress, he says

...as I wished to possess myself of a copy of the manuscript (which I wrote out myself) Mr Charles Stuart Hay with very great politeness agreed to illuminate it for me...

Which leaves two possibilities: there were two Lauder manuscripts (one in his own hand and one written by Charles Allen) or Lauder had a faulty memory.

One wonders why, if Charles Allen was the sole author of the Lauder manuscript, he would pull the rug out from under the Vestiarium Scoticum by forgetting to insert MacLean.

[figheadair]

Thanks for the clarifications, I've not seen the originals and I'm depending on whatever sources I can find.

In Scotland's Forged Tartans Donald C Stewart writes

It is worthy to remark that the entry for this tartan had been crowded into the lower margin of p13 of the Cromarty MS...the writing is more cramped and in a weaker ink that the rest of the page; the reference to "the quhite sett" will have been a slip.

When Sir Thomas Dick Lauder was transcribing the Cromarty MS in 1829 he passed directly from MacLauchlan to Gordon as if MacLean had not at that time been inserted.

About Lauder doing a transcription, in an 1829 letter Lauder wrote to Sir Walter Scott, quoted in The History of Highland Dress, he says

...as I wished to possess myself of a copy of the manuscript (which I wrote out myself) Mr Charles Stuart Hay with very great politeness agreed to illuminate it for me...

Which leaves two possibilities: there were two Lauder manuscripts (one in his own hand and one written by Charles Allen) or Lauder had a faulty memory.

One wonders why, if Charles Allen was the sole author of the Lauder manuscript, he would pull the rug out from under the Vestiarium Scoticum by forgetting to insert MacLean.

So far as I know, there is/was only one copy of the Lauder Transcript, that which Charles Allen illustrated, and I'm happy with the idea that Lauer transcribed it himself. What is not clear is whether he transcribed directly from the CM, or whether the brothers had already produced a refined version by 1829 which he then copied. I don't know whether Thompson and Stewart actually examined the CM or worked from the Microfiche version. Either way, the CM is now in relatively poor condition and it is difficult to read it completely.

CM extract p.jpg

I don't have a full digital version of the LT but the Index certain includes MacLean (Makleane) between MacLeod and Campbell.

Lauder Transcript Index extract.jpg

In terms of undermining the published VS, Charles Allen's drawing of the Duke of Rothesay tartan in the LT is akin to what became Victoria, and is nothing like the red sett in the published VS.

[OC Richard]

Right, that's where Makleane originally was.

Then it seems the Allens found the old MacLean document, crowded a new Maklane at the bottom of p13, and changed Makleane to MakCeane (evidently only changing the one letter).

This means that the MakCeane tartan in the modified Cromarty MS was the brother's original design for Makleane. Had the brothers not found that old document the MacLeans would probably be wearing a different tartan today.

[Troglodyte]

Here you go...

d4769c99b4c64f56eee805a2cd8bc03a.jpg

The best of both worlds, or what..?

[kiltedsawyer]

I can go with "or what."

[Ivor]

Forgive me if I’m wrong but I am reading threads like this and get the impression that this forum has decided to be the undisputed arbiter of all things kilted. Am I to understand that any deviation from the rules laid down here (backed up by extensive historical research and photographic evidence) constitutes a violation of everything that people in Scotland believe in and that any who choose to follow their own path face eternal damnation. It seems that one elderly individual has been adopted as the oracle if all things kilted whereas others of a more flexible outlook, and by that I mean most of us who hire outfits with white socks and ghillie brogues, are to be regarded as beneath contempt.
I am not trying to in any way diminish anyone’s commitment to wearing Scottish traditional dress but I do wonder why it is necessary for some to denigrate the choice of others in this way.
I know that my dress choices may not always meet the current fashion norms of those who must be obeyed but who, exactly, is placed in such a position of influence to decide on these matters?
As a relative newcomer, it seems more and more that unless extremely rigid rules are followed then only ridicule will follow.

[ShaunMaxwell]

Forgive me if I’m wrong but I am reading threads like this and get the impression that this forum has decided to be the undisputed arbiter of all things kilted. Am I to understand that any deviation from the rules laid down here (backed up by extensive historical research and photographic evidence) constitutes a violation of everything that people in Scotland believe in and that any who choose to follow their own path face eternal damnation. It seems that one elderly individual has been adopted as the oracle if all things kilted whereas others of a more flexible outlook, and by that I mean most of us who hire outfits with white socks and ghillie brogues, are to be regarded as beneath contempt.
I am not trying to in any way diminish anyone’s commitment to wearing Scottish traditional dress but I do wonder why it is necessary for some to denigrate the choice of others in this way.
I know that my dress choices may not always meet the current fashion norms of those who must be obeyed but who, exactly, is placed in such a position of influence to decide on these matters?
As a relative newcomer, it seems more and more that unless extremely rigid rules are followed then only ridicule will follow.

It’s a discussion. Opinions vary. Some of the members here are more knowledgeable about traditional modes of Highland dress, and their thoughts are valued by the more traditionally minded on this forum. If you disagree, so be it and dress as you please. You are under no compulsion to comply with any opinions expressed on this or any other forum. That’s kind of the point of a discussion forum.

Cheers,

SM

[Troglodyte]

Forgive me if I’m wrong but I am reading threads like this and get the impression that this forum has decided to be the undisputed arbiter of all things kilted. Am I to understand that any deviation from the rules laid down here (backed up by extensive historical research and photographic evidence) constitutes a violation of everything that people in Scotland believe in and that any who choose to follow their own path face eternal damnation. It seems that one elderly individual has been adopted as the oracle if all things kilted whereas others of a more flexible outlook, and by that I mean most of us who hire outfits with white socks and ghillie brogues, are to be regarded as beneath contempt.
I am not trying to in any way diminish anyone’s commitment to wearing Scottish traditional dress but I do wonder why it is necessary for some to denigrate the choice of others in this way.
I know that my dress choices may not always meet the current fashion norms of those who must be obeyed but who, exactly, is placed in such a position of influence to decide on these matters?
As a relative newcomer, it seems more and more that unless extremely rigid rules are followed then only ridicule will follow.

I am one of those rare beasts which were once thought to roam in huge numbers on their native heath - that is, a regular kilt-wearing Scot living in the Scottish Highlands.

It has long been my opinion (based on experience) that there is distinct cultural divide running down the Atlantic, with the kilt-wearers at home in Scotland being much more relaxed and varied in their approach to their heritage than is found in North America.

But do not misunderstand me, this is not a we-are-right-and-they-are-wrong criticism, but an observation of general practice.

What I have noticed is that there is a lack of 'cultural understanding' outside the UK, and particularly Scotland. Consequently, there is a much keener need to 'do things right' where Highland dress is really only seen at festivals and Highland Games put on in North America.

There has long been a tradition in Scotland for the national team's supporters to turn up en-masse kilted and sporraned, but with footie shirts and whatever footwear they fancy. The fact that this has been the way for several generations makes it 'traditional' by definition. But I know this is widely scorned outside the UK.

The important thing is that we Scots feel Highand dress is in no way diminished by this, for we know that the fans' kilts and sporrans will later be rigged-up with doublet and lace, fancy hose and appropriate brogues. To us, it is both correct and traditional for the occasion.

What is now considered correct traditional Highland dress (and particularly daywear) is essentially post-WWI fashion, that saw the casual English country styles being adapted for kilt-wear. It was heavily criticised by traditionalists at the time, but the 'dulled-down' fashion has become, to some, the quintessential style that cannot, must not, be deviated from.

This, of course, is nonsense and is nothing more than a form of tribal costume - and it is worn in a way as if to make a statement. If you are not wearing a kilt in the correct dye shades, a hill-check tweed jacket with Tattersall-check shirt and club tie, all-leather sporran of the approved design, and shoes and socks of a certain kind, then you are 'wrong'.

Add in the flat-cap and Oxford toe-cap shoes that are often advocated, and you have the 'approved' style in full.

But to Scot's eyes like mine, the Tattersall-checks and club-stripes, Oxford shoes and flat-cap are glaringly English in style and origin, and really have no place in tradtional Highland outfits - no matter how many photographs are produced as evidence.

The cultural understanding comes from growing-up with the tradition, and most of us here in the UK seem to know instinctively what looks right, and I have never noticed any sense of shame or embarrassment when it comes to hiring a kilt outfit. And no-one who sees it seems to care one way or another. The important thing is that the right effort is being made.

We know that much of what are sold as kilt-hose are also sold as shooting-socks elsewhere and mainly in England, and that toe-cap Oxford shoes (and the clue is in the title here) are an English style intended for wearing with trousers, not the kilt.

Ghillie-brogues are quintessentially Highland, and perfectly suited to kilt-wear as they were first intended. We have none of the fear that someone who has set themselves up as the arbiter in these matters might disapprove. Sod 'em..! would be the response, if not something worse.

Myself, I grew up into kilt-wearing with the advice from older generations being that it is worn when it is appropriate to wear trousers - and so gets dressed-up or -down accordingly. Simple as that, with no rules other than what convention suggests.

Outside Scotland and the wider UK, fashions and certain ideals regarding Highland dress have evolved only over the past 30-40 years, that are now different from older establshed ways here at home. And whilst most of this is sound and creates a ceretain 'look' it has no real authority and you are really free to do as you please.

My initial questions was to guage difference in feeling, and the response has more or less confirmed my suspicions. Ghillie-brogues were created close on 200 years ago (if not more) solely for kilt-wear, so why not wear them? They are seen in huge numbers here in Scotland (not just on pipe-band feet) but other forms of brogue are available as taste and demand requires.

We should not forget that with the revived Highland dress, brogues are really the only apropriate form of footwear.

Myself, I prefer to wear heavy brogues with the kilt, and so the regimental-issue style suits me - the regimental ghillies are reassuringly solid and sturdy. But I also keep thinner-soled and lighter-weight versions of both ghilllie and buckle-brogues for when required.

[figheadair]

But to Scot's eyes like mine, the Tattersall-checks and club-stripes, Oxford shoes and flat-cap are glaringly English in style and origin, and really have no place in tradtional Highland outfits - no matter how many photographs are produced as evidence.

Whilst I tend to agree wit this view, I would qualify it with the observation that, in my experience, Tattersall-checks and regimental ties are pretty de rigueur for many with a military, particularly an army, background. I grew up with them and wear mine with pride.

Ghillie-brogues were created close on 200 years ago (if not more) solely for kilt-wear, so why not wear them?

No just the kilt. The Allen brothers, who were probably responsible for them, at their inventive best.

Costume of the clans-2.jpg

[Pleater]

Whilst I tend to agree wit this view, I would qualify it with the observation that, in my experience, Tattersall-checks and regimental ties are pretty de rigueur for many with a military, particularly an army, background. I grew up with them and wear mine with pride.



No just the kilt. The Allen brothers, who were probably responsible for them, at their inventive best.

Ah one of the cherubim (cherry bum)
Where did I hear that - some film maybe?

Anne the Pleater