What are we allowed to post in this section?

[Nathan]

"All the threads you recently moved had sat there happily for over a year undisturbed."

This is not strictly true. The Jacket thread that was moved to the Accessories section was originally posted on the 14th of Oct. It was moved on the 16th of Oct.

The Tradition and Change thread was originally posted on the 4th of Nov. and moved to General Kilt Talk on the 6th of Nov.


In total there were only four threads moved. Each was about something other than the kilt. The "For Jock" thread was about a Tartan covered chair.

You're right, the timeline was slightly off, I should have double checked before saying that. While I don't know what the "For Jock" thread is, I think getting into a back and forth about what was moved is a distraction, so I'll just post them here so that we all know what we're talking about.

Leaving aside the Tradition and Change thread which I wrote after these all moved, erroneously thinking I understood what you were telling me by moving threads, there were 6 before that one moved from the Traditional sub-forum.

All of these threads moved in the same night, October 3, 2014. The first six were posted in the traditional sub-forum because I, as the OP, was asking specifically about how the tradition views certain choices.

1 (originally posted December 1, 2013 (10 months)
-----
Thread: New tweed argyll (http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=81972)
Original Forum: Traditionally Made Kilts and How To Wear Them (http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...play.php?f=101)
New Forum: How to Accessorize your Kilt (http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...play.php?f=103)
-----
2 originally posted May 13, 2014 (5 months, not a year)

Thread: Tartan waistcoat experimentation (http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=84023)
Original Forum: Traditionally Made Kilts and How To Wear Them (http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...play.php?f=101)
New Forum: How to Accessorize your Kilt (http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...play.php?f=103)

3 originally posted on June 25th, 2014 (more than 4 months)
Thread: "Highland" embellishments on jackets (http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=84591)
Original Forum: Traditionally Made Kilts and How To Wear Them (http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...play.php?f=101)
New Forum: How to Accessorize your Kilt (http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...play.php?f=103)
-----

4 originally posted on December 18th, 2013 (nearly 10 months)
Thread: The ideal time for the black argyll (http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=82157)
Original Forum: Traditionally Made Kilts and How To Wear Them (http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...play.php?f=101)
New Forum: How to Accessorize your Kilt (http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...play.php?f=103)
-----

5 originally posted on December 3rd, 2013 (10 months)
-----
Thread: Let's talk full dress sporrans (http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=81994)
Original Forum: Traditionally Made Kilts and How To Wear Them (http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...play.php?f=101)
New Forum: How to Accessorize your Kilt (http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...play.php?f=103)
-----

6 originally posted on March 25th, 2014 (over 6 months)

-----
Thread: Regimental ties (http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=83404)
Original Forum: Traditionally Made Kilts and How To Wear Them (http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...play.php?f=101)
New Forum: How to Accessorize your Kilt (http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...play.php?f=103)
-----



And 7, originally posted on September 8th 2014 (one month) if you count this one which I posted in historical to find out where the show diverged from actual historical garb and wanted input from highland garment history experts more than from pop culture fans.

I asked, "To those who are very versed in the textiles of the era, how does the show do? Is it spot on or Hollywood Brigadoonery?"


-----
Thread: Outlander Wardrobe and language (http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=85690)
Original Forum: Historically Made Kilts and How To Wear Them (http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...play.php?f=244)
New Forum: Kilts in the Media (http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...play.php?f=104)
-----


So if none of these threads asking for a traditional perspective on Highland attire, nor the tradition and change thread pass muster I have two questions.

1) Where should I ask a question that I only want traditional feedback on? and,

2) Can you provide examples of topics that would be germane here?

Incidentally, I don't want a war. I want to continue to be a resource and pass along what I have learned to others that are interested in hearing about it. I'm here to help and I'm not sure why the potential new user has to be made to feel welcome at all costs, but a loyal contributing member who buys from advertisers can be discarded without a second thought.

[CMcG]

...
What I think has been missed here is that the Style Forum and its three sub-forums are not fashion forums. There are currently no forum sections on X Marks that deal with different fashions, How you wear your kilt or what you wear with it should not be specific to one forum section.
…

This is incorrect in both theory and practice.

Firstly, the Style sub-fora names may be divided according to kilt construction (i.e., Traditionally Made Kilts), but the descriptions of the sections include the words style and fashion (i.e., how kilts can be worn to emulate a traditional style or fashion). As the title bar of the website states, this is a community of kilt-wearers so the way kilts are worn trumps the way they are constructed.

Secondly, in practice members have used the Style section as fashion or style fora… or they did until threads starting getting moved.

...
First I need to explain something. I am not anti-traditional. It is simply that I do not like the way the acronym THCD is used here.
This acronym was invented by just a few members here. It is used only here, and by just a few members. It is not known or used anywhere else. No one outside this forum would know what it is supposed to mean.
And I would bet that no one outside of this forum would use it or agree with how it is used here.

As Tobus explained in post #51, THCD is just a convenient acronym for a particular approach to wearing the kilt. The idea of tradition in Highland attire, however, is widespread. A majority of Xmarkers wear kilts because of their heritage, ancestry, culture, ethnicity, and/or nationality, and this is also the case outside this forum.

Nathan and I wrote in our article, Traditional Highland Civilian Dress: A Definition and Guide with Visual Examples, that there are broad areas of consensus about how to dress traditionally in a wide range of settings and levels of formality. This still allows plenty of room for personal interpretation, but the idea of fashion “rules” isn’t really that different from the conventions of menswear in the none-kilted world. Admittedly, there are also areas of contention, which provide endless sources of discussion on this forum (white hose anyone?).

As an aside, I see that our article has been un-stickied…

Some members may be discouraged or annoyed when they want to wear a kilt in non-traditional ways and an auld crabbit tells them it is “wrong.” This is a question of perspective and there are more inclusive ways of expressing oneself. Many traditionalists now make an effort to soften their tone by prefacing their statements with “according to tradition” or some such. Clear sub-fora are also helpful here so that one doesn’t have to explain their point of view in every post

...
And frankly I am getting just a little tired of the traditional vs modern tension that is caused by the way THCD is used. Lately X Marks has become known as a traditionalist stronghold. All of the other kilt forums have had comments to this effect that if you want to discuss modern kilt wear you should do so on another forum.

We all wear a kilt for different reasons. Some of us wear a kilt one way and some another. But we all do wear a kilt. This should unify us.
…

There is bound to be tension between people who wear kilts purely as they please and those who hold it to embody various types of meaning related to their identity. An interest in kilts may bring everyone to this site, but it most certainly does not unite us. I appreciate the sentiment of wanting everyone to get along, but these different points of view are like oil and water.

...
The only difference is the reason we wear a kilt. And this is where you, yourselves may have presented the solution.
I would be agreeable to changing the Style Forum Section based on the reason we wear a kilt not on how we choose to wear it or what we choose to wear with it.

...

Please remember that these forum sub-sections are merely a suggestion. My goal is to find some way of ending the conflict and finding a way that is based on the well-being of the entire forum and all its members. Please feel free to comment.

I agree that the reasons people wear a kilt is important. It cannot, however, be so easily separated from how they choose to wear it.

As Nathan mentioned in post #38, you already suggested these new forum sub-section in another thread about three months ago. And as we already discussed there at some length, there are two main problems.

Firstly, there are too many sections (eight at present count). This runs the very real risk of over-regulating the discussion and thus making it difficult to generate enough traffic.

Secondly, reasons alone are empty without being attached to style. Once one’s intentions are manifested in their clothing choices, we have an approach to wearing the kilt. That’s why style sub-fora are important. As an example, the “everyday clothing” reason could be expressed as a cargo/utility kilt, tee-shirt, and sandals, but this approach has very little in common to discuss with someone wearing a tartan kilt, hose, sporran, button-up shirt, and tweed jacket. In fact, lumping these approaches together under the same reason is likely to cause more tension…

I appreciate the desire to mitigate conflict, but with such a diverse membership, it is bound to happen. It's your forum, Steve, but don't cut off your nose to spite your face...

[California Highlander]

This is incorrect in both theory and practice.

Firstly, the Style sub-fora names may be divided according to kilt construction (i.e., Traditionally Made Kilts), but the descriptions of the sections include the words style and fashion (i.e., how kilts can be worn to emulate a traditional style or fashion). As the title bar of the website states, this is a community of kilt-wearers so the way kilts are worn trumps the way they are constructed.

Secondly, in practice members have used the Style section as fashion or style fora… or they did until threads starting getting moved.

< deleted stuff >

I agree that the reasons people wear a kilt is important. It cannot, however, be so easily separated from how they choose to wear it.

As Nathan mentioned in post #38, you already suggested these new forum sub-section in another thread about three months ago. And as we already discussed there at some length, there are two main problems.

Firstly, there are too many sections (eight at present count). This runs the very real risk of over-regulating the discussion and thus making it difficult to generate enough traffic.

Secondly, reasons alone are empty without being attached to style. Once one’s intentions are manifested in their clothing choices, we have an approach to wearing the kilt. That’s why style sub-fora are important. As an example, the “everyday clothing” reason could be expressed as a cargo/utility kilt, tee-shirt, and sandals, but this approach has very little in common to discuss with someone wearing a tartan kilt, hose, sporran, button-up shirt, and tweed jacket. In fact, lumping these approaches together under the same reason is likely to cause more tension…

I appreciate the desire to mitigate conflict, but with such a diverse membership, it is bound to happen. It's your forum, Steve, but don't cut off your nose to spite your face...

I agree with CMcG on the proposed new forum sections as too narrowly defined and too many!

Keeping it simple by allowing the "related" style and accessory posts seems the easiest, but it does require the OP, the subsequent posters, and the mods to be aware of where the thread is located before posting or moving. Some people will hijack threads, intentionally or not. Stop the unwanted behaviour, don't kill the thread by moving it.

I am a "What's New" reader here. I have a wide range of interests including both the contemporary and traditional modes of kilt-wearing and kilt types. However, I always look at the forum's section name for a post before replying. If I'm in a "trad tweed talk" thread in the traditional forum, I should restrain myself from posting about off-topic items. If there are off-topic replies, a gentle reminder to "stay on-topic or start a new thread" usually is best. Moving the thread should be the exception, to be applied where content truly started out in the wrong place.

[Calgacus]

I have other things occupying my mind at the moment so I'll keep this short and hopefully coherent.

It is becoming apparent to me that Steve simply doesn't 'get it' with regards to the cultural and traditional elements that are important to some of us on these fora. Either that, or he is willfully pursuing an agenda that is at odds with those elements. Either way, I've found myself tiring of it over the past weeks and months. I find that those with like minds are slowly becoming disaffected and slipping away, and the posts that I find interesting drying up in consequence. As a result, inevitably, I find myself less and less engaged.

That's the bottom line, and Steve can either act on that or not. It's his shout.

[davidlpope]

The suggestion, below, is the simple and effective way to address all these issues. It's really just that easy. Why not try this for 6 months and see how it works?

Historical: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt from a bygone era—whether accurate, theatrical, or anachronistic.

Traditional: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt as Scottish Highland attire that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Contemporary: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt as everyday clothing and/or street wear that privileges personal interpretation.

[Calgacus]

The suggestion, below, is the simple and effective way to address all these issues. It's really just that easy. Why not try this for 6 months and see how it works?

Agreed. Out of all the options and attempts, I'd say this is the only one with a chance of pulling things back from the brink.

[davidlpope]

Is this a decision that could be submitted to the moderators, as a panel, for consideration?

[CMcG]

Is this a decision that could be submitted to the moderators, as a panel, for consideration?

Taskr has started a thread about it in the Comments and Suggestions sub-forum:
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...st-here-86607/

[ratspike]

This has gone so far off the rails that it's just a joke. W.T.F. is going on up in this piece lately?
@Nathan, @CMcG and the others 100% spot on with their comments. The overlords seem to be overlording just to have something to do, or to feel like they're keeping the masses in line, or maybe they're just not paying attention to what they're doing. Whatever the reason, it's counterproductive and confusing. Knock it off, boys.

The new forum sections are truly awful, as was previously noted by @Tobus, and reek of trying way too hard. Speaking as a guy who treats kilts as just another article of clothing, I looked at those section descriptions and felt like someone was talking to me like I'm an idiot. "If you are one of the female, girl type people..." Seriously? This one alone is so terrible it makes me want to punch kittens.

Someone, I forget now who it was, said something along the lines of the soul being sucked out of the forum, and I think that's pretty accurate. To Steve and the "moderation" team, I'd say you need to listen very, very carefully to the points these guys are trying to make. I honestly believe that The Powers That Be here in xmarks truly don't get it, and are woefully out of touch with what the site is, the purpose it serves, and who the members are. I'd urge them to wise up and get a clue, because members and their content is what drives a forum and makes it a vibrant, living, growing thing.

[Tobus]

It is becoming apparent to me that Steve simply doesn't 'get it' with regards to the cultural and traditional elements that are important to some of us on these fora. Either that, or he is willfully pursuing an agenda that is at odds with those elements. Either way, I've found myself tiring of it over the past weeks and months. I find that those with like minds are slowly becoming disaffected and slipping away, and the posts that I find interesting drying up in consequence. As a result, inevitably, I find myself less and less engaged.

I think you summed up what a lot of people are feeling. Thank you for putting it bluntly.

I'd like to step back for a moment and say that this thread is really starting to get a negative vibe, as it exposes the feelings of discontent (or, dare I say, disenfranchisement) that some of our most established and active members are feeling. It's good to get it all out on the table, and I hope we can turn this into a positive thing. I think we can all agree that this forum has been a great resource and a fun place to be. The suggestions which have been made in this thread (and the others referenced in recent posts) would go a long way towards returning us to that.

But I do notice a distinct pattern here. With threads being moved, sticky posts being quietly unstickied, and comments made by Steve about this forum being too traditional, I think we members need to ask a serious question. Is the future direction of the forum's content going to be one of trying to fit what users want, and providing us a forum to discuss topics we find interesting? Or is there an existing model already in place that requires social engineering in order to force the atmosphere to conform to what the staff/owner wants it to be? It's an honest question. Recent events give the appearance of the latter, while members were expecting the former. Obviously, the members need to know what to expect.

In other words, if discussions of traditional kilt topics are being actively suppressed in order to make the forum appear less traditional, then can we just admit it openly so we know what's going on? Conversely, if it's not being suppressed, then what is the intent for traditionalists to be able to carry on with traditional discussions (without making non-traditionalists feel unwelcome)?