Heraldry Sources?

**The Frumious B.** · 13th August 06, 01:32 PM

I would like to post my family Coat of Arms, is that the right term?, here in the PHOTO spot on my profile...does any :confused: of that make sense?

Where can I find a cut and pastable jpeg or something to use?

Anyone? Anyone?

**macwilkin** · 13th August 06, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by The Frumious B.

I would like to post my family Coat of Arms, is that the right term?, here in the PHOTO spot on my profile...does any :confused: of that make sense?

Where can I find a cut and pastable jpeg or something to use?

Anyone? Anyone?

Hello, Frumious B! Thanks for your interest in the Heraldry forum.

As far as terminology, there is generally no such thing as a "family" coat-of-arms, especially in regards to heraldry in the British Isles. For an excellent source dealing with Scottish heraldry, I recommend:

http://www.albanach.org/scotheraldry.html

Now, you might be referring to a "clan badge", really the "Chief's Crest Badge", which is usually a crest, surrounded by a buckle-and-strap, with the motto of the Chief -- those are a whole different "kettle of fish", so to speak, and may be used by any clansman to display his loyalty to the Chief, who is the "father" of his clan.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me or just reply this post, and I'll be happy to help.

Cheers,

Todd

**glengall1** · 20th August 06, 04:28 AM

Originally Posted by cajunscot

Hello, Frumious B! Thanks for your interest in the Heraldry forum.

As far as terminology, there is generally no such thing as a "family" coat-of-arms, especially in regards to heraldry in the British Isles. For an excellent source dealing with Scottish heraldry, I recommend:

http://www.albanach.org/scotheraldry.html

Now, you might be referring to a "clan badge", really the "Chief's Crest Badge", which is usually a crest, surrounded by a buckle-and-strap, with the motto of the Chief -- those are a whole different "kettle of fish", so to speak, and may be used by any clansman to display his loyalty to the Chief, who is the "father" of his clan.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me or just reply this post, and I'll be happy to help.

Cheers,

Todd

I think I disagree with you here but I will bow to your graeter knowledge on the subject possibly.

Indeed there WERE coats of arms. That is where the clan crests came from. It is a version of the family coat of arms.

For instance my clan is Keith.

This is the Keith coat of arms.

This is the Keith clan crest.

Note the similarity.

Please also be very careful when you are using artwork like this as it maybe copyrighted.

**smaughazard** · 20th August 06, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by cajunscot

As far as terminology, there is generally no such thing as a "family" coat-of-arms, especially in regards to heraldry in the British Isles.

Cajunscot is correct, there are no "family" coats-of-arms; instead a coat-of-arms belongs to an individual. It is sometimes possible to apply for your own, but it is not cheap.

**macwilkin** · 20th August 06, 06:17 AM

What I was discussing, though, was the myth of the "family" coat-of-arms, ie that everyone with the same surname is entitled to the same arms. You are quite correct, the "clansmen's badge" does come from arms -- the arms of the Chief, which you have depicted in your message. When there is no Chief of a clan, the Lord Lyon will allow "ancient" arms to be used, as in the case of the Clan Gunn -- Lord Lyon allows their Commander, Sir Iain Gunn of Bannskirk, to use the arms of the last known Chief.

The "clansmen's badge" is the crest of the chief's coat of arms, and thereby displays the clansmen's loyalty to his Chief.

http://heraldry-scotland.co.uk/beginners.html

http://www.lyon-court.com

So I think you may have misunderstood my post; apologies for not being more clearer.

Regards,

Todd

Originally Posted by glengall1

I think I disagree with you here but I will bow to your graeter knowledge on the subject possibly.

Indeed there WERE coats of arms. That is where the clan crests came from. It is a version of the family coat of arms.

For instance my clan is Keith.

This is the Keith coat of arms.

This is the Keith clan crest.

Note the similarity.

Please also be very careful when you are using artwork like this as it maybe copyrighted.

**glengall1** · 20th August 06, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by smaughazard

Cajunscot is correct, there are no "family" coats-of-arms; instead a coat-of-arms belongs to an individual. It is sometimes possible to apply for your own, but it is not cheap.

Sorry I agree with you on this. I have fallen into the trap that others do with the phrasology of it all.

A quote from Sir Malcolm Innes of Edingight CVO, Lord Lyon King of Arms (then)

"While all the constituent elements of the Chiefly Arms - shield, crest and supporters - are the property of the individual Chief, every clansman can share in the pride of the Chief by displaying the crest badge, which consisits of the crest of the Chief within a strap and buckle and the Chief's motto."

This is where the pouplar misconception of Clan Coat of Arms comes in. People mistakenly think that the above is a coat of arms. It is the Chiefly Arms that the crest comes from.

A great expalnation is to be found on the present Lord Lyons website:

"The origin of the Coat of Arms was a jacket or tabard worn by a mediaeval Knight over his armour in order to identify himself. Nowadays the expression "Coat of Arms" is generally applied to what is officially called an "Achievement", which consists of various parts: a shield, helmet, mantling, wreath, crest, motto and sometimes supporters and decorations.

There is a widespread misconception that a family or a clan can have a family or clan Coat of Arms. Many heraldic and clan web sites and other media suggest that a person has the right to use the family or clan Arms. This is completely incorrect."

You can also apply on this site for your own coat of arms. As said above it is very expensive !!!!

My apologies for my mistake. Every day is a school day.

**glengall1** · 20th August 06, 06:48 AM

Hi Todd,

You must have been writing your post when I was writing mine. Looks like we are in complete agreement now

I am just about to start learning Gaelic. What is the translation of your sig.?

**macwilkin** · 20th August 06, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by glengall1

Hi Todd,

You must have been writing your post when I was writing mine. Looks like we are in complete agreement now

I am just about to start learning Gaelic. What is the translation of your sig.?

No worries, glengall1!

The translation is: Follow close in the footsteps of your fathers -- Scotland Forever!

Cheers,

Todd

**glengall1** · 20th August 06, 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by cajunscot

No worries, glengall1!

The translation is: Follow close in the footsteps of your fathers -- Scotland Forever!

Cheers,

Todd

Fantastic. I have always wanted to learn Gaelic so I went on-line and I have signed up to some basic lessons. Can't wait.

**Matthew Siegmann** · 26th February 08, 09:47 AM

Nothing like reviving an old thread. Anyway I was wondering what the rules about coats of arms are if they are no longer used. ie. I'm of Clan Keith. The associated coat of arms that is pictured previously in this thread actually belonged to the the Earl Marischal of Scotland. The last known person to hold this title was George Keith (1693-1778). He had a brother whom I cannot find any information on, and a sister who married another Lord, but George Keith had no direct decendents as far as I know. What are the rules for a coat of arms then?