Heraldry Sources?

[The Frumious B.]

I would like to post my family Coat of Arms, is that the right term?, here in the PHOTO spot on my profile...does any :confused: of that make sense?

Where can I find a cut and pastable jpeg or something to use?

Anyone? Anyone?

[macwilkin]

I would like to post my family Coat of Arms, is that the right term?, here in the PHOTO spot on my profile...does any :confused: of that make sense?

Where can I find a cut and pastable jpeg or something to use?

Anyone? Anyone?

Hello, Frumious B! Thanks for your interest in the Heraldry forum.

As far as terminology, there is generally no such thing as a "family" coat-of-arms, especially in regards to heraldry in the British Isles. For an excellent source dealing with Scottish heraldry, I recommend:

http://www.albanach.org/scotheraldry.html

Now, you might be referring to a "clan badge", really the "Chief's Crest Badge", which is usually a crest, surrounded by a buckle-and-strap, with the motto of the Chief -- those are a whole different "kettle of fish", so to speak, and may be used by any clansman to display his loyalty to the Chief, who is the "father" of his clan.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me or just reply this post, and I'll be happy to help.

Cheers,

Todd

[glengall1]

Hello, Frumious B! Thanks for your interest in the Heraldry forum.

As far as terminology, there is generally no such thing as a "family" coat-of-arms, especially in regards to heraldry in the British Isles. For an excellent source dealing with Scottish heraldry, I recommend:

http://www.albanach.org/scotheraldry.html

Now, you might be referring to a "clan badge", really the "Chief's Crest Badge", which is usually a crest, surrounded by a buckle-and-strap, with the motto of the Chief -- those are a whole different "kettle of fish", so to speak, and may be used by any clansman to display his loyalty to the Chief, who is the "father" of his clan.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me or just reply this post, and I'll be happy to help.

Cheers,

Todd

I think I disagree with you here but I will bow to your graeter knowledge on the subject possibly.

Indeed there WERE coats of arms. That is where the clan crests came from. It is a version of the family coat of arms.

For instance my clan is Keith.

This is the Keith coat of arms.

This is the Keith clan crest.

Note the similarity.

Please also be very careful when you are using artwork like this as it maybe copyrighted.

[macwilkin]

What I was discussing, though, was the myth of the "family" coat-of-arms, ie that everyone with the same surname is entitled to the same arms. You are quite correct, the "clansmen's badge" does come from arms -- the arms of the Chief, which you have depicted in your message. When there is no Chief of a clan, the Lord Lyon will allow "ancient" arms to be used, as in the case of the Clan Gunn -- Lord Lyon allows their Commander, Sir Iain Gunn of Bannskirk, to use the arms of the last known Chief.

The "clansmen's badge" is the crest of the chief's coat of arms, and thereby displays the clansmen's loyalty to his Chief.

http://heraldry-scotland.co.uk/beginners.html

http://www.lyon-court.com

So I think you may have misunderstood my post; apologies for not being more clearer.

Regards,

Todd

I think I disagree with you here but I will bow to your graeter knowledge on the subject possibly.

Indeed there WERE coats of arms. That is where the clan crests came from. It is a version of the family coat of arms.

For instance my clan is Keith.

This is the Keith coat of arms.

This is the Keith clan crest.

Note the similarity.

Please also be very careful when you are using artwork like this as it maybe copyrighted.

[glengall1]

Hi Todd,

You must have been writing your post when I was writing mine. Looks like we are in complete agreement now

I am just about to start learning Gaelic. What is the translation of your sig.?

[macwilkin]

Hi Todd,

You must have been writing your post when I was writing mine. Looks like we are in complete agreement now

I am just about to start learning Gaelic. What is the translation of your sig.?

No worries, glengall1!

The translation is: Follow close in the footsteps of your fathers -- Scotland Forever!

Cheers,

Todd

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

These are the arms of Lord Kintore, Chief of Clan Keith, as drawn by Don Pottinger, Islay Herald, and one of the all-time greatest heraldic artists, ever. The drawing is copyright by his estate.

This is the clansman's badge of a member of Clan Keith, and may be worn by those who place their clan allegiance with the chief of that clan. As with the illustration above, it too is copyright by the estate of the late Don Pottinger.

When in the 18th century George Keith, Chief of the Clan, died without issue, his arms would have passed to either a brother, a nephew, or a cousin, and thence, by descent, to the present Chief of the Keiths, Lord Kintore.

I hope that answers your question.

[Matthew Siegmann]

These are the arms of Lord Kintore, Chief of Clan Keith, as drawn by Don Pottinger, Islay Herald, and one of the all-time greatest heraldic artists, ever. The drawing is copyright by his estate.
This is the clansman's badge of a member of Clan Keith, and may be worn by those who place their clan allegiance with the chief of that clan. As with the illustration above, it too is copyright by the estate of the late Don Pottinger.

When in the 18th century George Keith, Chief of the Clan, died without issue, his arms would have passed to either a brother, a nephew, or a cousin, and thence, by descent, to the present Chief of the Keiths, Lord Kintore.

I hope that answers your question.

Okay, I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just trying to understand, does that mean that the Lord Kintore no longer uses their previous arms or do they now have two sets? Here is a link to what the original Earl of Kintore arms look like: http://www.clankeithusa.org/history-...ls-kintore.htm

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Okay, I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just trying to understand, does that mean that the Lord Kintore no longer uses their previous arms or do they now have two sets? Here is a link to what the original Earl of Kintore arms look like: http://www.clankeithusa.org/history-...ls-kintore.htm

Upon the death of George Keith in 1778 his entailed estates passed to Lord Falconer.

The arms seem to be Falconer quartered with Keith (I can't really tell because the illustration is too small for me to make it out properly). Since the Earldom of Kintore can pass through the female line it is likely that this occurred, thus promoting Lord Falconer from the rank of Baron to the rank of Earl and Chief of Clan Keith.

It is not especially uncommon for someone with a quartered coat to use only the pronominal quartering.

[smaughazard]

As far as terminology, there is generally no such thing as a "family" coat-of-arms, especially in regards to heraldry in the British Isles.

Cajunscot is correct, there are no "family" coats-of-arms; instead a coat-of-arms belongs to an individual. It is sometimes possible to apply for your own, but it is not cheap.