Meaning of Tartan's ?

[brewerpaul]

There is alot of fascinating reading on this subject. What I have seen states that most the tartans started as a variation of the Black Watch. From there threads of colour were added by clans. There was a push at one time to have the clans adopt a tartan for recognition, even though many of them did not have one. For me the tartan and its colours are a personal item. Being German I have no Scottish Clan to look to for a tartan so I have had to improvise. Though I wear some of the generic tartans that are available I have wanted to wear some I can identify with. I had my "tank", made by Bonnie Heather Greene, done in the Marton Mills German Heritage tartan created by Rocky of USA Kilts. It is a gorgeous 16 wool kilt and the tartan is rich in colour, the colours coming from the German flag. As my family settled in Texas in the 1800's I have designed my own tartans, one registered and one not. I take the colors from the German flag and Texas flag to make my family tartan, yes I registered it as a family name tartan. I have made one with an emphasis on the blue and black with the red, white and yellow/gold more subdue that will be the daily or hunting tartan. It is enjoyable to make these and in time see how they will turn out as a kilt. Ill be calling Bonnie Greene again when I have the funds together.

So bottom line for me and likely many clan tartans it is a matter of colours and combinations that mean something. And the reading on kilt and tartan history is quite enjoyable.

[figheadair]

The short answer is no

Agreed

Originally the colours used in a particular tartan would have depended on the vegetable dies available in the area.

We have very little idea and almost no evidence of dyes before about 1700. From then onwards two of the principle tartan dyes: indigo (blue) and cochineal (red) were imported. The latter of course is an insect dye so natural as opposed to vegetable dyes is a more correct term.

What I have seen states that most the tartans started as a variation of the Black Watch.

I don't know where you've seen this stated but it's rubbish. The majority of pre-1800 setts that survive have no connection with the Government setting.

[davidg]

The latter of course is an insect dye so natural as opposed to vegetable dyes is a more correct term.

You are, of course, absolutely right. I did know that, honest

I seem to recall cochineal came from Spain but I'm not absolutely certain. I can't remember where indigo comes from though

[figheadair]

You are, of course, absolutely right. I did know that, honest

I seem to recall cochineal came from Spain but I'm not absolutely certain. I can't remember where indigo comes from though

Cochineal came originally from Mexico and lives on cactus. The Spanish brought both back and cultivated them. For many years they controlled the secret of true scarlet and there was my industrial espionage to try and discover it. The Bows company in London were using it by the early 1600s. The other source which occasionally turns up as a red source is Persian Lac, another type of Shield Insect dye.

There are over 40 sub-species of indigo, which comes from India, but there are several other plant species that produce Indogotin, the actual dyestuff. Most notable in European culture is Woad which of course is often associated with the Picts. Indigo was widely grown in Virginia and the Carolinas during the colonial period.

[piperdbh]

I can't remember where indigo comes from though

Indigo was a cash-producer in the southeastern US, among other locales worldwide.

[Bugbear]

I don't know where you've seen this stated but it's rubbish. The majority of pre-1800 setts that survive have no connection with the Government setting.

figheadair, about how many pre-1800 clan setts were there?

I've been trying to understand all of this, and there are so many old myths that get repeated and stuck in one's head...

[figheadair]

figheadair, about how many pre-1800 clan setts were there?

I've been trying to understand all of this, and there are so many old myths that get repeated and stuck in one's head...

Were there? We will never know.

How many from all sources, which really means extant examples or very good portraits (and the latter are always open to interpretation), can I identify that are pre-1800? Perhaps 50 or so and certainly less than 100 of the over 7500 now in existance. That's why it's so important to research and preserve them and their history.

[Bugbear]

Were there? We will never know.

How many from all sources, which really means extant examples or very good portraits (and the latter are always open to interpretation), can I identify that are pre-1800? Perhaps 50 or so and certainly less than 100 of the over 7500 now in existance. That's why it's so important to research and preserve them and their history.

Thank you. I have a feeling I was not clear in my question. I was asking how many "clan tartan" setts there might have been before 1800?
I apologize very much if I'm not understanding the answer: the numbers look high for clan tartans.

[figheadair]

Thank you. I have a feeling I was not clear in my question. I was asking how many "clan tartan" setts there might have been before 1800?
I apologize very much if I'm not understanding the answer: the numbers look high for clan tartans.

Just for clarity, as there were no clan tartans pre-c.1800 I assume you mean how many of the current clan tartans existed before 1800? There is a sub-set to that question which is and was that tartan associated with the clan that now uses it as their tartan. Correct?

[Bugbear]

Just for clarity, as there were no clan tartans pre-c.1800 I assume you mean how many of the current clan tartans existed before 1800? There is a sub-set to that question which is and was that tartan associated with the clan that now uses it as their tartan. Correct?

Oh my... I'm glad I asked. It's worse than I thought. I thought I had seen one or two people claiming their clan's tartan had been in use in the 1700s as an identification of the clan. Thanks for clearing that up, and I apologize for my misunderstanding.

I guess the question would have to be about, as you say, setts that had been associated with clans in that century and are now used as clan tartans?