The Kilt's use in Irish Nationalism

[Blackrose87]

The Northern Irish/Ulster Scots/Scots Irish who settled this part of America were the descendants of Presbyterian Lowlanders and Borderers who didn't wear the kilt. They tended to view the kilt-wearing Highland Scots as uncivilized and looked down on both their language, Scots Gaelic, and their religion, Catholicism or Episcopalianism. I'm a bit surprised that Ulstermen see the kilt as an expression of their type of Scottishness. Perplexing...

I'm not sure about America, as I have no knowledge of the history of immigration over there.
But I was referring to the Ulster-Scots in Ulster.
You're right that they were originally lowlanders brought over during the Ulster plantation.So they may not have worn the kilt at this time. But the prescience of the later tartan, shows that at least some wore tartan, or maybe some were highlanders.
Anyway the lowlander's traditions have developed, changed and grown over time. In Scotland, what were once only markers of regional Highland identity have over time become markers of national Scottish identity. In the same way, some aspects of Ulster-Scots identity have adopted Highland influences too.

Do you mean to say that only highlanders, living in Scotland have a real reason to wear the kilt? Only they have the right type of Scottishness?

[cessna152towser]

Please folks, don't let the anger rise.
Lets not have to lock a good thread.
Please bear in mind our rule on keeping discussion polite.
We all have our own reasons for choosing to wear the kilt, there is no need to justify wearing the kilt or condemn others for doing so.

[davidlpope]

I'm not sure about America, as I have no knowledge of the history of immigration over there.
But I was referring to the Ulster-Scots in Ulster.
You're right that they were originally lowlanders brought over during the Ulster plantation.So they may not have worn the kilt at this time. But the prescience of the later tartan, shows that at least some wore tartan, or maybe some were highlanders.
Anyway the lowlander's traditions have developed, changed and grown over time. In Scotland, what were once only markers of regional Highland identity have over time become markers of national Scottish identity. In the same way, some aspects of Ulster-Scots identity have adopted Highland influences too.

Do you mean to say that only highlanders, living in Scotland have a real reason to wear the kilt?

From a historical and cultural perspective, yes. "Pan-Scottish identity" and the appropriation of highland cultural aspects (tartan, kilt, highland bagpipes) by non-Highlanders post-dated the movement of the Ulster Scots to Ulster. That being said, and as I communicated before, liking kilts is the only real reason needed to wear a kilt.

My point, though, is that the Ulster Scots who came here (who were the same people group as the Ulster Scots who didn't emigrate and are your ancestors) saw themselves as very different from Highlanders and did not want to be grouped with them. As a result, the Ulster Scots who emigrated to America did not go in for the whole "tartan, kilt, bagpipe" thing. Many generations later their descendants have adopted the culture of Highland Scots (tartan, kilt, bagpipes), erroneously thinking that Presbyterian, Lowlander "G-G-G-G-G-Grandpa Wauchope" would have worn a tartan kilt and played bagpipes.

I assumed that this was uniquely an American phenomenon and that the Ulster Scots who stayed in Ulster would have had enough continuity with their unique Lowland/Border culture not to exchange it for the later "Pan-Scottishness" that occurred in Scotland. I was surprised by your post indicating that the same phenomenon that occurred here in the US among the descendants of Ulster Scots also occurred in Ulster.

[Blackrose87]

I assumed that this was uniquely an American phenomenon and that the Ulster Scots who stayed in Ulster would have had enough continuity with their unique Lowland/Border culture not to exchange it for the later "Pan-Scottishness" that occurred in Scotland. I was surprised by your post indicating that the same phenomenon that occurred here in the US among the descendants of Ulster Scots also occurred in Ulster.

I dont have any real knowledge of their traditions, just as an outside observer. But I always thought the due to the close proximity to Scotland, their traditions most likely evolved along with the lowlands and borders, to incorporate highland traditions.
Of course some things didn't take, as while the speaking of Scots is still quite common, there is no evidence of Scottish Gaelic

[Zardoz]

As an Man of Irish heritage I should love this time of year, but not around here.This topic has gotten off track every year. I should know better than read any thread that has the word Irish and Kilt in it.

Wisest statetment in this thread.

[hkjrb623]

I was responding to MacSpadger's post. While OT, I think that this discussion is worthwhile.

I believe that HKJRB623's reference to "the Irish" also refers to "Americans of Irish-descent in America", although I hope he'll chime in and clarify.

My contention is that most Americans are wholly unaware of Padraig Pearse and the use of the kilt in Irish Revivalism. Most Americans who discover XMarks seem to be unaware of this, as well, and have some vague notion that the early Irish wore the kilt in the current, Scottish manner.

Cordially,

David

Irish-American is what I meant. Sorry for not clarifying.

[Jock Scot]

Do you mean to say that only highlanders, living in Scotland have a real reason to wear the kilt?

Just for your information. Whether we like it or not and most here will be in the "not" camp no doubt, there is most certainly a school of thought that do firmly think that only Highlanders should wear the kilt and most of them think that the kilt should only be worn in the Highlands too, as civilians that is. It may be helpful for all, even if you probably don't agree, to be aware of this.

[Mickey]

Just for your information. Whether we like it or not and most here will be in the "not" camp no doubt, there is most certainly a school of thought that do firmly think that. It may be helpful for all, to be aware of this.

I certainly understand this. I relate it to when I see civilians who have never served in any capacity in the armed forces, wearing any article of military uniform (especially USMC or displaying a medal) because they like how it looks. If you must wear it, at least wear it as how it was intended.

If there are any fans of the show "So You Think You Can Dance", you may know about how one of the judges, Mia Michaels, wore a USMC dress blue uniform with the rank insignia upside down because some costume designer thought it would look cool. She got hammered by anybody associated with the USMC and made a public apology (which I still do not accept).

This is why I do not like the "modern kilt", which no matter who makes them I refer to as the Utilikilt. I think they are a bastardization of the kilt and a bit of a thumb to the nose to Scotland.

Apologies in advance to Alan and all who enjoy these things. I think that they have their place for the folks who like them, but to somehow associate them with Scotland is just wrong and disrespectful.

I don't know if I am Scottish or Irish. My family name exists in both countries. Our genealogy is sketchy at best. But I understand the folks like me who dearly want a connection or an answer, and to the folks like me, I feel right in the kilt, try hard to represent the kilt honorably, and hope that I don't tick off a Highlander who truly feels that I am contaminating their history.

[Gael Ridire]

Wow!, I just spent three hours reading this thread, and it has made me think on my kilt wearing reasons. First I thank Jock and McSpader for their comments coming from Scotland, and their view of how they wish the kilt would remain a dress of the Scots. And Jock added that some only wish it worn in the Highlands. Interesting.

In my reading of early history the first empire should be that of the "Celts," but academicians consider it not so because although the Celts shared a common culture, etc., there was no central government, thus they don't count. A year or so ago I was at a national genealogical convention and talking to a genealogist from Dublin who stated this also and that the word Celt really has no foundation. Then he added the reason for the saffron dye shirt being so popular was that it repealed lice.

Fifteen years ago I met with Sir Conor O'Brien, Chief of O'Brien, and he asked me why Americans were so consumed with discovering their roots. I thought to myself, "There's got to be more then blue jeans and tee-shirts." My awaking was going to my first state Scottish Festival. It was like coming home! I then began to study the Scots culture, obviously from the romantic viewpoint. Year after year I became more knowledgeable and worked to remove a lot of the romantic and incorrect stories, i.e., 'Kirkin' of the Tartan.'
About this same time I met Mr. Kernow from Cornwall, who was touring the U.S. doing interviews at newspapers, TV, and radio about how the Cornish wished the world to know that they were not Englishmen, but "Celts!" A group similar to the Irish Gaelic League met to discuss how to go about this. It was decided upon to wear the kilt and have tartan designed for the Cornish. The reason, the world recognizes the kilt as being Scottish and that the Scots are Celts. I do believe that the world knows that the kilt is Scottish. Granted the Irish Gaelic League found no local dress or "costume," so the Scot kilt was adopted but in plain wool not tartan, i.e., to make a difference between Irish & Scot.

As posted earlier, ". . . the cat is out of the bag." The other "Celtic" countries of Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, Galacia, and Isle of Man seem to have adopted the kilt so that all the world will know that they are "Celts." Such is evolution of "traditions", centuries old handed down, or recently created. I found this read fascinating in the articles mention in the various posts. So yes, the diaspora and mostly Americans have created modern traditions from various parts of cultures. Look at the tradition of the American version of Santa Claus for an example. For me being part of the Irish diaspora and also of Scot descent, I've created a tradition in my family of wearing the kilt (Irish National Tartan) for ethnic identity, to set the family apart from the jeans & tee-shirts that surround us, to tell the world that I'm Irish (Irish tartan), but also of the "Celts (wearin' the kilt)."

Sorry if this offends native Scots, but there is a unique moment every time that I strap on my kilt, and I like wearin' it! Also played the bagpipes for the same reason till an injury left a quarter of throat paralyzed. I miss the spell the pipes have.

But if there is reservation about non Scots wearin' the kilt, perhaps one should have the same attitude about the thousands of tartans of modern design should not be accepted or worn.

[The Thing]

Great post David. I never have understood the Irish wearing kilts or playing bagpipes to show their heritage, I just accepted it. Just like accepting how a religious holiday became about green beer and getting totally hammered.
Somehow the "Celtic" traditions are simply American traditions.

The Irish have been playing the bagpipes for as long as the Scottish (which has been well docummented in history).