Irish Kilts: solid vs. tartan

[CMcG]

If I can jump in before Paul answers. You did ask me a question in a "pipe band" context and I answered in a "pipe band" context. A piper is usually in a uniform of some sort with an appropriate instrument. A tourist is wearing a T shirt(?), wet weather gear(!) and carrying a camera!

Yes, tourist accessories are easy to pick out all over the world. The tour bus that they arrive on with a local person leading the pack, or utterly confused person struggling to figure out a map are also international tourist symbols

What if you saw a person at an event, in Britain somewhere (possibly Scotland), in the evening, where Scots might be wearing tartan kilts and tweed jackets, but one person was wearing a solid saffron kilt and tweed jacket? What would you (and others) think then? Leave aside for the moment any other Irish accessories (like a shamrock kilt pin) or tourist accessories that might give further information, in order to just focus on perceptions of the solid colour kilt amongst a bunch of tartan kilts.

[Jock Scot]

Yes, tourist accessories are easy to pick out all over the world. The tour bus that they arrive on with a local person leading the pack, or utterly confused person struggling to figure out a map are also international tourist symbols

What if you saw a person at an event, in Britain somewhere (possibly Scotland), in the evening, where Scots might be wearing tartan kilts and tweed jackets, but one person was wearing a solid saffron kilt and tweed jacket? What would you (and others) think then? Leave aside for the moment any other accessories (like a shamrock kilt pin) that might give further information, in order to focus on perceptions of the solid colour kilt amongst a bunch of tartan kilts.

One word, "tourist"

If I was a betting man I would put a £ on American tourist, but the tweed jacket(they are not often seen either) might get me to consider Australian tourist. A local would be wearing tartan as you say, if he was wearing the kilt that is.

[Paul Henry]

I'm not in the Highlands so I can't really answer for what locals there might think, however in places like Edinburgh I would think that tartan kilts are still the norm, although tweed/plain coloured kilts might be seen, it's likely that they would be thought of "like a kilt but not quite" by many.
As to an Irish saffron kilt, it really only becomes associated with a regiment when the rest of the outfit is worn as well, so a simple tweed jacket and saffron kilt would not neccessarily evoke any military or indeed Irish connections.

I live in London now but I grew up in Northern Ireland, and my memories of kilts are very hazy if I have any at all, so they were not that obvious or perhaps relevant to me as a child. We did spend most summers in Scotland , mainly in the Borders and Lowands as that was where my parents were most familiar with because of their parents. I saw kilts during those visits, and because I remember those, it enforces the view that they were not very common back in Northern Ireland. But it's hard for me to make comments on what the average British person might think, indeed possibly hard for any of us on this forum, as I am very interested in kilts , and consequently have a deeper and more accurate knowledge that many "normal" people in the street, but also that I make kilts!

[CMcG]

...But it's hard for me to make comments on what the average British person might think, indeed possibly hard for any of us on this forum, as I am very interested in kilts , and consequently have a deeper and more accurate knowledge that many "normal" people in the street, but also that I make kilts!

Very true. Moving from speculation to personal opinion then, what do you think when you see a solid saffron kilt?

[Paul Henry]

Very true. Moving from speculation to personal opinion then, what do you think when you see a solid saffron kilt?

To be honest I'm not sure, but I suspect my first thought would be that someone was trying to identify with some sort of Irishness, but most likely that the owner wasn't from the British Isles.

[Blackrose87]

To be honest growing up in Ireland, I never considered kilts to be Irish. I visited Scotland a few times when I was a child so I was aware of the kilt, but I was lays under the opinion that they were Scottish.
When I did see a kilt being worn in Ireland they were worn by pipe bands. I would only see these on TV or the newspaper, as I didn't go to one of the parades until recently, and as far as I remember, they were mostly solis colour kilts.
But I would have still considered these Scottish, and just assumed that the Ulster-Scots were wearing kilt to show their Scottish heritage. I never would have thought hey were Irish, and I think the majority of Irish people would think the same now.

In my opinion I prefer the Irish tartans, I've never been a fan of the solid colour, just from an asthetics point of view. I think people in the north of Ireland would also wrongly associate the saffron kilt with certain groups such as the Orange Order due to its colour, so I guess thats not something I want to be associated with. And I've just never really seen a solid colour kilt I've liked that much.

[MacSpadger]

What if you saw a person at an event, in Britain somewhere (possibly Scotland), in the evening, where Scots might be wearing tartan kilts and tweed jackets, but one person was wearing a solid saffron kilt and tweed jacket? What would you (and others) think then? Leave aside for the moment any other Irish accessories (like a shamrock kilt pin) or tourist accessories that might give further information, in order to just focus on perceptions of the solid colour kilt amongst a bunch of tartan kilts.

.....Possibly a piper of the London Irish Regiment, who were outfitted with saffron kilts by Hercules Pakenham in 1906 when he was appointed the Commanding Officer of the London Irish Rifles, and decided he wanted a pipe band along the lines of the London Scottish Regiment. No-one in the London Irish had any experience in bagpiping at all, so they began learning from scratch in that year.

......Or possibly a piper of the Irish Guards, who were outfitted with saffron kilts in 1916 by the Irish Guards C.O. who wanted a pipe band similar to the Scots Guards. Again, no-one in the Irish Guards had any experience in bagpiping at all, so they began learning from scratch in 1916, getting lessons from members of the London Irish who must have picked up a bit by then.

But, as Jock Scot says, it would be much more likely to be an American tourist. I'd probably bet on it too.

But solid coloured kilts are not exclusively Irish at all. I have seen vintage Scottish tweed kilts. John Brown, manservant to Queen Victoria, was wearing a rather snazzy 3 piece with not a whit of tartan back in 1866.



And of course the London Scottish Regt have been wearing the Hodden Grey since 1859.

[OC Richard]

I like to put things in perspective, take the long view, and try to stay reasonably within tradition.

We should perhaps keep in mind that Highland Dress itself is the unbroken traditional descendant of the ancient Irish dress. Tartan is a living reminder of the ancient Gaelic love for colour and pattern. Kilts are the direct descendant of the ancient Irish "mantle" or to give it its traditional Gaelic title Brat.

The traditional Irish costume was deliberately exterminated by the English so when the Irish Revial took off in the late 19th century all they had to go on were images like this, a 1521 eyewitness record of the traditional Irish dress



These revivalists evidently misunderstood the nature of the traditional Leine and Brat costume and thought that the end of the Leine was a solid-coloured kilt. Here is a classic Revival costume from 1910



It would have been far more fitting, traditional, and historical for the "Gaelic Revival" in Ireland to have adopted Highland Dress entire, as it is the living unbroken descendant of the 1521 dress.

So, on many grounds, traditional, historical, and aesthetic, I am not a fan of plain solid selfcoloured kilts being promoted as the standard "traditional" Irish kilt. Of course solid kilts were not unknown in Scotland itself: I have come across a few 19th century images of them, such as this one



Luckily the ancient Gaelic love for colour and pattern has reasserted itself and today there are many Irish tartans. This explosion, as far as I can tell, was kicked off by the House of Edgar in the 1980s when they introduced lovely tartans for each Irish county, which have become very popular, though colours seem to have been assigned more or less at random, and not in keeping with the counties' colours as can be seen in GAA kits etc.

Seem that most civilian Irish pipe bands nowadays (the ones in Ireland I mean, not US ones) have gone over to tartan kilts.

[MacSpadger]

We should perhaps keep in mind that Highland Dress itself is the unbroken traditional descendant of the ancient Irish dress.

Richard, I usually enjoy your posts, but this is utter nonsense. For a start, not even in the Highlands is Highland Dress considered entirely traditional. It's most certainly not "unbroken" by a long shot and again the Irish/Highland angle, which seems to still come from Bede's myth being reported as actual history.

There are a great many in Scotland who consider Highland Dress, (as we know it) to be a creation of the fashionable upper class Victorians. A lot of our ideas about Highland dress, and indeed customs, come from the Highland Society of London's ideas on what was traditional. These were very wealthy people privately educated in England, where they lived although some owned land in Scotland. I no more consider them to have an idea of Highland tradition than I would any other absent Scottish landowner, such as the Sultan of Brunai or even Donald Trump, (although he does keep going on and on and on about it).

Highland dress also went through a period of reinvention about 100 to 80 years before the Irish reinvention. It's the view of many pipers that when we wear Highland dress we are dressing in the style of our Victorian forebears, but probably not much further back. That's how it was taught in Aberdeenshire, that's how it's taught in Strathclyde, and I have been told the same goes for Tayside and the Lothians too. It's been a couple of years since I have been in Inverness or Skye so I can'y comment there. The likes of Angus MacKay and the subjects painted in Kenneth McLeay's Highlanders of Scotland in the 1860's were being dressed by their employers in the type of clothing that those self same employers hope would reflect their status, wealth and taste. Victorian taste. However, they did like to represent it as something ancient.

In a reflection of the Highland Society of London, the Irish Gaelic League was also originally composed of very wealthy people privately educated in England, where many of them lived, although some owned land in Ireland as well. They held their meetings in Kensington. An equivalent might be fashionistas of Beverley Hills meeting to discuss how Appalachian mountain dwellers would dress.

Of course, as I've said before, if the kilt, etc, is the traditional dress of the bonny bonny Heilan's, and everyone wore it, then why do the bodies found in Highland bogs there not show evidence of this?

[Lime]

I think people in the north of Ireland would also wrongly associate the saffron kilt with certain groups such as the Orange Order due to its colour

Really?! I would be very surprised and would have thought that this colour (together with green) would be studiously avoided.