Wool Flat Cap... a no-no with a kilt?

[Droid]

Just so you know, many in Scotland, particularly in the Highlands would not consider a flat cap, or button down collars as kilt attire. What you decide to do, is entirely down to you.

I was planning on, because it's a tad cooler in Scotland than California, wearing a button down shirt under the sweater. What else would one wear under a sweater?

[Jock Scot]

I was planning on, because it's a tad cooler in Scotland than California, wearing a button down shirt under the sweater. What else would one wear under a sweater?

OK we may be talking at trans-Atlantic cross purposes here so, by button down shirt I mean a shirt with the collar tips buttoned down by a single button on each side(end)of the collar. So just in case we are talking about the same thing, we usually wear shirts without collars buttoned down and no buttons or button holes in the collar to do so. Make no mistake we have button down collars, but would probably be in a minority for general wear and probably quite unusual with the kilt.

[English Bloke]

...Make no mistake we have button down collars, but would probably be in a minority for general wear and probably quite unusual with the kilt...

Depends where you buy your shirts Jock. I'm not keen on button down collars meeself, but a lot of the supermarkets now stock them as standard, off the peg, and that's where most folk seem to buy stuff now...

I see a lot more button down collars around UK (Scotland included) in both smart and casual dress, than ever there was and I even have one or two meeself (he confessed, guiltily). To be honest, I don't think many but the keenest eye would notice.

Maybe it's 'cause ASDA is owned by Walmart and the fashions are creeping across the pond. Who knows.

[CMcG]

Depends where you buy your shirts Jock. I'm not keen on button down collars meeself, but a lot of the supermarkets now stock them as standard, off the peg, and that's where most folk seem to buy stuff now...

I see a lot more button down collars around UK (Scotland included) in both smart and casual dress, than ever there was and I even have one or two meeself (he confessed, guiltily). To be honest, I don't think many but the keenest eye would notice.

Maybe it's 'cause ASDA is owned by Walmart and the fashions are creeping across the pond. Who knows.

I've noticed a progressive increase in the number of guys who wear button down collars with a tie and it kind of bothers me because my understanding is that this style of collar was designed for keeping things neat when one doesn't wear a tie. Sort of like wearing a belt and suspenders/braces. This combination seems to be gaining social and sartorial currency through (mis)use.

This phenomenon sheds some light for me on the flat cap with kilt debate. Traditionally, the flat cap is not worn with the kilt but enough people do it now that many people probably see nothing wrong with it, or even think it looks great. For anyone who still associates flat caps with other styles of un-kilted attire, it must look, for lack of a better word, wrong.

[SlackerDrummer]

I've noticed a progressive increase in the number of guys who wear button down collars with a tie and it kind of bothers me because my understanding is that this style of collar was designed for keeping things neat when one doesn't wear a tie. Sort of like wearing a belt and suspenders/braces. This combination seems to be gaining social and sartorial currency through (mis)use.

This phenomenon sheds some light for me on the flat cap with kilt debate. Traditionally, the flat cap is not worn with the kilt but enough people do it now that many people probably see nothing wrong with it, or even think it looks great. For anyone who still associates flat caps with other styles of un-kilted attire, it must look, for lack of a better word, wrong.

The idea that the button-down collar is for when one is not wearing a tie is complete and utter nonsense. The button-down collar was designed and made popular in the United States in the late 1800s to hold the collar in place during active pursuits (riding, shooting, fishing, etc.), but this was a time when gentlemen wore ties while doing those things. A shirt with this style of collar is to shirts what a tweed suit is to suits -- country attire -- no more and no less. What has changed over the last hundred years is that button-down collars are being worn more and more with regular suits and I can see one's argument that that isn't traditional, but ties have always been worn with button-down collars. This isn't a new thing and it certainly isn't a shift from proper to improper. I don't know where the idea came from, but it seems to have taken hold on this forum and it is ridiculous. It is true, however, that button-down collars never caught on as much in Europe so it should come as no surprise that they are not considered traditional with highland attire (to bring it all back to kilts).

[CMcG]

The idea that the button-down collar is for when one is not wearing a tie is complete and utter nonsense. The button-down collar was designed and made popular in the United States in the late 1800s to hold the collar in place during active pursuits (riding, shooting, fishing, etc.), but this was a time when gentlemen wore ties while doing those things. A shirt with this style of collar is to shirts what a tweed suit is to suits -- country attire -- no more and no less. What has changed over the last hundred years is that button-down collars are being worn more and more with regular suits and I can see one's argument that that isn't traditional, but ties have always been worn with button-down collars. This isn't a new thing and it certainly isn't a shift from proper to improper. I don't know where the idea came from, but it seems to have taken hold on this forum and it is ridiculous. It is true, however, that button-down collars never caught on as much in Europe so it should come as no surprise that they are not considered traditional with highland attire (to bring it all back to kilts).

Apparently I was misinformed about the origins of the button down, so thank you for setting me straight.

I just did a bit of searching and several sources (including Brooks Bros.) say the button down shirt came from Ivy League polo players, which gives it a sporting origin. The faux pas that people are making, then, is treating it as other than a casual shirt i.e. wearing one with a suit. My original analogy still works (with a small tweak) because it isn't traditional to wear a flat cap with a kilt, just as it isn't traditional to wear a button down collar shirt with a suit, but lots of people do it. Those who know, and hold to, the tradition will see it as wrong, while others will say it looks fine and is popular, so go for it.

[Braw Cathairneach]

OK we may be talking at trans-Atlantic cross purposes here so, by button down shirt I mean a shirt with the collar tips buttoned down by a single button on each side(end)of the collar. So just in case we are talking about the same thing, we usually wear shirts without collars buttoned down and no buttons or button holes in the collar to do so. Make no mistake we have button down collars, but would probably be in a minority for general wear and probably quite unusual with the kilt.

I’ve a vague recollection that button down collars originated in the UK as a remedy for taming collar points during strenuous equestrian activities. If the recollection is correct than it would seem that you’d just be returning the custom to its origin.

It does seem a bit more difficult to tame the kilt during strenuous equestrian activities than it is to tame the collar points. That’s probably not a pretty image to conjure up…

[federkeil]

That's interesting. I'm not sure what a shirt that doesn't button all the way down would be. Like a polo shirt? Or I guess, a grandfather shirt (I'm not sure if that's what they're called outside Ireland) but I haven't seen one of those for years.

Someone is more than welcome to correct me if I'm wrong. But I believe traditionally the half button shirt was a "shirt" and the full button shirt was referred to as a "blouse"

This must be the "uniform" that certifies that you're Irish...
AA

I find this funny as, growing up, I always associated flat caps with Germans as my grandfather and father always wore them. And during my Europe trip last Fall I saw more flat caps, and higher quality ones (IMO) in Germany than in Ireland.

As to the OP...