How will the market change?

[Tobus]

We will never see the $50 contemporary kilt..... At least not in the next 10 years.

Oh no?

[James Hood]

Fascinating thread, thank you for your contributions.

In this observation, the last truly enormous "clothing revolution" was when blue cotton denim farm-ranch trousers went from hipster-punk (James Dean and Marlon Brando in 1955) to Hippie (with bell bottoms in 1969) to today's nauseatingly boring omnipresent unisex world-wear.

Do kilts "have what it takes" to make even a tiny fraction of that progression? Again in this opinion, they are seen by the vast lowing hordes as (tartan) ethnic-Scottish and pipe band and at very best, rare (modern, not prolific) "rebellious youth" garb.

Some places, such as Chicago are hideously-dreadfullydespicably traditional in clothing. Given the millions upon millions upon millions huge population of this vast megopolis, one might expect to see...and be disappointed by not...more diversity in dress.

[Alan H]

Oh no?

Whoah!!! double whoah....

When did THAT model hit? That's GOT to be made offshore.

That kilt, right there is a total Game-changer.

[Tobus]

In this observation, the last truly enormous "clothing revolution" was when blue cotton denim farm-ranch trousers went from hipster-punk (James Dean and Marlon Brando in 1955) to Hippie (with bell bottoms in 1969) to today's nauseatingly boring omnipresent unisex world-wear.

Do kilts "have what it takes" to make even a tiny fraction of that progression? Again in this opinion, they are seen by the vast lowing hordes as (tartan) ethnic-Scottish and pipe band and at very best, rare (modern, not prolific) "rebellious youth" garb.

The very thing you describe with "nauseatingly boring omnipresent unisex world-wear" is one of the reasons that I actually wouldn't want the kilt to go mainstream. I like that the kilt is a special thing, with a small minority of enthusiasts. Traditional kilts have a unique culture and history, and modern kilts have a sort of 'underground' culture attached to them. I don't think I'd be at all excited about wearing it if it became as ubiquitous as today's blue jeans. And too, I'm sure the modern urban fashionistas would tweak it into something very effeminate and unattractive like they've done with modern blue jeans. I'd rather leave well enough alone and keep contemporary kilts in the 'rugged outdoor wear' style!

Whoah!!! double whoah....

When did THAT model hit? That's GOT to be made offshore.

That kilt, right there is a total Game-changer.

From what I've read, I'm pretty sure they're made in Pakistan.

But yeah, that's going to be the natural evolution of contemporary cargo-style kilts if they are ever going to start to approach the same price point as a pair of cargo pants or cargo shorts. Virtually all of the major labels in trousers and shorts have their goods made in Asia. And the general public will never see contemporary kilts as a viable option if their price remains north of $75 or even $50. It will always be a specialty-market item unless it can compete on price with its equivalent in trousers or shorts. So UTKilts is probably on the leading edge in that respect.

I've read from some members who bought UTKilts that the quality isn't the best, and that they can start to fall apart after a few washings. But that's not really any different than most other consumer textile goods that are mass-produced in Asia, either. The consumer market doesn't seem overly concerned with quality any more. Just price. So if contemporary kilts are going to go mainstream like other articles of clothing, they'll have to go down that same road of mediocre quality in order to get the price low enough to be comparable. So again, UTKilts is probably the leader on that particular step of the evolution.

[creagdhubh]

The very thing you describe with "nauseatingly boring omnipresent unisex world-wear" is one of the reasons that I actually wouldn't want the kilt to go mainstream. I like that the kilt is a special thing, with a small minority of enthusiasts. Traditional kilts have a unique culture and history, and modern kilts have a sort of 'underground' culture attached to them. I don't think I'd be at all excited about wearing it if it became as ubiquitous as today's blue jeans. And too, I'm sure the modern urban fashionistas would tweak it into something very effeminate and unattractive like they've done with modern blue jeans. I'd rather leave well enough alone and keep contemporary kilts in the 'rugged outdoor wear' style!

Well said, Tobus.

[Whidbey78]

The very thing you describe with "nauseatingly boring omnipresent unisex world-wear" is one of the reasons that I actually wouldn't want the kilt to go mainstream. I like that the kilt is a special thing, with a small minority of enthusiasts. Traditional kilts have a unique culture and history, and modern kilts have a sort of 'underground' culture attached to them. I don't think I'd be at all excited about wearing it if it became as ubiquitous as today's blue jeans. And too, I'm sure the modern urban fashionistas would tweak it into something very effeminate and unattractive like they've done with modern blue jeans. I'd rather leave well enough alone and keep contemporary kilts in the 'rugged outdoor wear' style!

I agree on this. I don't wear a kilt (tartan, camo, or other) to be different, but because I like to. The fact that it isn't that common adds to the appeal. There is another current thread about kilt length, which can be found here, that shows a pic of five men walking toward the camera in "kilts" of various styles. The man on the left is decked out rather nicely (though too matchy-matchy), as is the guy in the center, but two of the other three look as if they raided their mothers' closets. The one in the leather jacket, second from left, looks less like a kilt and more like a jacket is tied around his waist. That's what I fear if the kilt were to grow into a mainstream garment. We've all seen the various kilt-inspired garments that have been posted here, mostly for a quick laugh. Fortunately, the stuff they put on the fashion runways, like concept cars, almost never go into production, though elements of these creations sometimes do.

A little more growth in the market is fine. I really hope it happens since competition leads to innovation, and often, better products more suited to the customer. Mass-customization is a good thing in most markets, and the kilt market is no exception (except in Utilikilts case it seems). Acceptance of the kilt has grown, and that may be more important in the long run than the number of people actually wearing it. That's getting into social concerns and is outside the scope of this thread, so I'll just stop there.

From what I've read, I'm pretty sure they're made in Pakistan.

But yeah, that's going to be the natural evolution of contemporary cargo-style kilts if they are ever going to start to approach the same price point as a pair of cargo pants or cargo shorts. Virtually all of the major labels in trousers and shorts have their goods made in Asia. And the general public will never see contemporary kilts as a viable option if their price remains north of $75 or even $50. It will always be a specialty-market item unless it can compete on price with its equivalent in trousers or shorts. So UTKilts is probably on the leading edge in that respect.

I've read from some members who bought UTKilts that the quality isn't the best, and that they can start to fall apart after a few washings. But that's not really any different than most other consumer textile goods that are mass-produced in Asia, either. The consumer market doesn't seem overly concerned with quality any more. Just price. So if contemporary kilts are going to go mainstream like other articles of clothing, they'll have to go down that same road of mediocre quality in order to get the price low enough to be comparable. So again, UTKilts is probably the leader on that particular step of the evolution.

I agree that these kilts can't compete in the mainstream at Utilikilts prices, or even half their price. The only option is overseas manufacturing and cheaper materials to reduce costs and stay in the price range of a pair of Dockers. Even if they managed to get the selling price to <$30, it still would not become a viable alternative to jeans or casual pants for a very large portion of the public, and for varied reasons. Setting aside personal preferences, social acceptance, etc, the fact remains that at $75 one generally isn't getting a very good kilt, even less so at $50. If most customers can buy a $20-30 pair of jeans or shorts at Walmart and get a lot of use from them, why would they spend two to three times that for something that falls apart after going through the wash a few times? With a down economy people are gravitating toward the polar ends of the spectrum--buying what they can afford easily or buying the absolute best they can get their hands on. That leaves Wally World jeans as the more logical option, and if the desire is really there for a modern kilt, saving up for one good one that will last. Unless they can get the quality to be competitive with RK, UK, etc, and keep the price <$50-75, there's just no way they can grab more of the mainstream market.

As one of the many DIYers here, I've been tempted to buy UT's base model and add a few bar-tacks and/or rivets to beef them up in the areas that people are talking about them coming apart. At $50 it's still nearly twice what I usually pay for materials to make one, but could be a viable option once it's weaknesses have been addressed, which would likely take little time compared to making something comparable myself. I'm fine with buying something for a tolerable price and having to do a little work on it, but the majority of the public is the opposite and wants something affordable, fairly well made, that will fit their needs or wants out of the box. That simply can't be supplied in this price range, and , as Alan has pointed out before, is hard to do at a much higher price as well.

I think the whole market will remain fairly stagnant for a while or will even shrink. The scenario of UK scaling back seems viable as well. The most logical business decision is outsourcing the manufacturing, but I do respect their stance on keeping domestic labor. If they have to scale down their operations in the future it will be much easier with domestic labor. It's often hard to maintain small contracts with overseas manufaturers, so they could be forced to send their manufacturing to contracted individuals (which is often risky), and accept a higher per-unit cost, or rebuild their original operation here, which would be costly and may take a long time to recover from. UK has a good business model, but not great. They are rejecting customization, even on a large scale, in the interest of maintaining a specific operating cost. This may, or may not be, a case of stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime, but it's their business to run.

[Alan H]

In regards to UK not doing customization of individual items, that makes sense if they're trying to go the way of mass production. Nobody asks Levis Strauss to customize a pair of dockers trousers, eh?

Honestly, $75 is too much money to get a "mainstream" kilt out there. Really..... $50 is too much, when I can walk into any of a number of mens clothing departments at chain stores and buy a pair of pants for $35. For $50 you're not getting a "nice" kilt, and there's absolutely no way it's going to be made with first world labor. Everybody agrees on that.

Once upon a time, another industry that started as almost cottage industries, "went global". I remember when North Face and Sierra Designs both started taking part of their production lines offshore. North Face started a sub-line of equipment called "Windy Pass by North Face" and marketed it as their "value" brand. The name only existed for about two years, until North Face management decided that the quality they were getting from their offshore manufacturing plants was up to snuff and then they moved ALL of North Face production (almost) to offshore plants. I was reminded of this when I recently acquired a tent from the Luminous Joans aunt and uncle, who'd bought it 20+ years ago and used it about twice. It had sat in their garage. I hadn't see a "Windy Pass" product in *Years*.

Anyway, I wonder if "UTkilts" is Utilikilts "Windy Pass". It will be interesting to see what they do in the next year to 18 months. If they get outside investors who acquire a major percentage share of the company, you can be pretty sure that the "made in the USA" philosophy will change.
The truth is....as I know from researching the "Earth Kilt" project. That when your volume is only a couple of thousand of units per year, it's actually cheaper to produce the product locally. However, once volume goes way up, it's cheaper to go offshore. You can bet that the "made in the USA" sticker will quietly disappear when that happens, because the truth is that while a lot of people LOVE to scream about domestic goods, the overwhelming majority of people choose one product over another based overwhelmingly on up-front-price.

[RockyR]

If they get outside investors who acquire a major percentage share of the company, you can be pretty sure that the "made in the USA" philosophy will change.
The truth is....as I know from researching the "Earth Kilt" project. That when your volume is only a couple of thousand of units per year, it's actually cheaper to produce the product locally. However, once volume goes way up, it's cheaper to go offshore. You can bet that the "made in the USA" sticker will quietly disappear when that happens, because the truth is that while a lot of people LOVE to scream about domestic goods, the overwhelming majority of people choose one product over another based overwhelmingly on up-front-price.

Again, I think it comes down to how the company approaches business. Some companies start out to make money (and for that sole reason). Others are based on making a specific statement (with making money as a hopeful result of that statement). Yet others are based in providing bespoke services and top quality goods.

When you're in a niche market, hundreds of thousands of units per year is not likely in the cards. Also, knowing Steve (the owner of UK) the way I do and with the values he founded the company upon, I think he would see it a failure of UK to have to move off shore. Why do you think they came out with a $150 model kilt? It's a way to get into a lower price point without moving production to China.

As a side note, cost of production in China and other "mass production power house" countries is (and has been) going up and up and up. Why do you think there have been so much made in the media of "made in America" and "putting American production companies back to work". Toyota and a few other big car companies have found it more cost effective to open plants in the US rather than have the cars made solely overseas and shipped in. Production in America is making a come-back. Hopefully the trend continues!

[RockyR]

Anyway, I wonder if "UTkilts" is Utilikilts "Windy Pass". It will be interesting to see what they do in the next year to 18 months. If they get outside investors who acquire a major percentage share of the company, you can be pretty sure that the "made in the USA" philosophy will change.
The truth is....as I know from researching the "Earth Kilt" project. That when your volume is only a couple of thousand of units per year, it's actually cheaper to produce the product locally. However, once volume goes way up, it's cheaper to go offshore. You can bet that the "made in the USA" sticker will quietly disappear when that happens, because the truth is that while a lot of people LOVE to scream about domestic goods, the overwhelming majority of people choose one product over another based overwhelmingly on up-front-price.

The comparison falls a bit short as UT and UK are 2 different companies. IF Utilikilts set up a new brand or came out with a line of utility kilts that was made overseas as a 'test' (UtilImporty Kilt line or something like that), then I would see cause for concern. The problem they'd run into at that point is that:

1. They would have to have the product be high enough quality to compete with other products in that same price point, but LOW enough that it didn't 'upstage' their regular models.
2. The problem would be that customers wouldn't understand the difference in price for similar product and would focus on the low end.
3. Then the company would have to justify the higher end by being "made in America", but could no longer use that blanket statement for all their product lines if they DID produce some overseas.
4. Sales of their made in USA lines would drop and they'd move all production overseas or run into enough problems trying to keep some production on US soil that they'd have to close.

There would be too big of a gap between the price points of the $50 import kilts (assuming that's the price we're aiming for) and their other models, of which most are in the $200 - $300 price points. For Patagonia / North Face / etc, there's not as much of a gap at a $30 fleece vest (import) to a $60 fleece vest (made in USA). Obviously these numbers are a bit arbitrary as I've never shopped for a fleece vest (and honestly don't know how much they cost), but you get the point.

Overseas production is a slippery slope. Using our own company as an example, we don't buy ANYTHING from Pakistan / China so we can proudly say that all our products are made in Celtic countries by Celtic artisans. If you have anything outside of that, you'd have to add "but" and "except" to that statement which would defeat the purpose. That's not meant to be a plug, just an example.

[Riverkilt]

All the years my grandfather Murdoch drug me to highland games, and all the years I went to highland games as an adult, I don't recall ever even thinking about wearing a kilt myself.

Then one fateful day I spotted a caramel Workman's Utilikilt at a Ren Faire and I was hooked. I just had to have one. The addiction was born. Not by any tartan kilt, but by a utility kilt. As soon as I was home from the faire I was on line and found the website - thanks to the huge Utilikilts embroidered logo on the back pocket of the guy's workman. I didn't have to approach him and ask where he got it.

Getting the first Utilikilts was a nightmare of delays and imperfections to be fixed...busted snaps, hems that came off in the laundry, the infamous drill holes...delays were 3 months. But I still wanted them. As of today I've owned a total of 18 Utilikilts in leather, Workman's, Survival II, Original, and (gag) Mocker models. Today I own three - new ones purchased to fit my current waistline. Utilikilts one size waist will make any kiltie appreciate velcro and kilt straps ability to adjust for changes in waistline.

My first Utilikilt was a woodland camo original - figured the camo was masculine enough to offset the skirt look. Wrong. First wearing in public I ran into my then boss who litteraly doubled over in laughter in the local hardware store. He couldn't stop laughing at me. I persevered because I love the feeling of wearing a kilt.

I think anyone will admit there's something about the "look" of utilikilts - especially the Workmans and the Survival II that men - and women - like. It looks "okay" "right" "different" and "interesting." I believe its that look that has propelled them to the top of their market.

Utilikilts marketing around beer and tough guy looks and their old personalized customer service (God I miss Uncle Otto!) was solid objection avoidance that answered all the prospective customers fears about being kilted.

And they sallied forth into the masses around the country with their booths. They used the genius move of putting their kilts on a guy over his pants then using peer pressure to get him to drop his pants...experience the FREEDOM....

AND - they were different. I remember wearing my black UK Workman's to a small highland games and encontering a young man in the same Utilikilt. I went up to say hello and he snubbed me like two women wearing the same dress at a party. I wanted to be "brothers" he wanted to be different.

In my eyes the trials of running a business - a cut and sew business - has dug into the customer service a bit. The alcohol base can't help but affect a business if decisions are made when a bit stewed. Years of making the same thing with slight changes has to get boring.

My prediction isn't that Utilikilts will go public, but that they'll sell out to another party.

They're also in danger of sabotaging themselves by trying to be too creative....witness some of the recent style changes...being different to be different isn't always going to bring sales.

So here I am at almost 68 years old loving the feel of my Utilikilts and wearing them to work, hiking, around town from time to time. They have a "different" feel from tartan kilts...not a better feel - a different feel. And that feeling is a good feeling. I feel as good when I don a Utilikilt as I do when I don a tartan kilt. Sort of a FREE, loose, flowing feeling...I feel jaunty wearing a Utilikilt.

As mentioned, no way can the workmanship necessary for the look and the feel of a Utilikilt bring it to lower retail prices. I like quality and I'm willing, and able, to pay for it.

And whatever Utilikilt has done they've managed to appeal both to young men and to seniors - many older than I wear Utilikilts too. If they stay with their successful models and don't mess them up they'll stay about where they are. They can't give up their efforts to get the curious to "just try" one on....the secret to their success is to get men to try on their product.

Which goes back to the booze laced business model. If they ever have a downfall it will be from booze.