Why Might A Clan NOT Have A Tartan?

[TheOfficialBren]

McElmurry,

I believe that the Saltire of St. Andrews is much older. If I'm not mistaken it dates to the 9th or 10th century making it the oldest state flag still in use in the Western World. I may be wrong, though.

[Grizzly]

McElmurry,

I believe that the Saltire of St. Andrews is much older. If I'm not mistaken it dates to the 9th or 10th century making it the oldest state flag still in use in the Western World. I may be wrong, though.

The legend of the Saltire -

Believed to be the oldest flag in Europe, the origin of the flag comes from an old legend. Tradition has it that the flag originated in a battle fought near the East Lothian village of Athelstaneford in AD 832.

An army of Picts and Scots under King Angus invaded the Lothians (at that time still Northumbrian territory), and found itself surrounded by a larger force of Saxons led by Athelstan. Fearing the outcome, King Angus led prayers for deliverance and was rewarded by seeing a cloud formation of a white Saltire against the blue sky.

The king vowed that if, with the saint’s help, he gained victory, then Andrew would thereafter be the patron saint of Scotland. The Scots did win, and the Saltire eventually became the flag of Scotland.

In 2003 the Scottish Parliament specified the official colour of the flag using the international colour coding system and it was decided that the white St Andrew's Cross should appear on an azure background known as Pantone 300.

Along with the royal flag, the Lion Rampant, the Saltire can be seen flying with gusto in the crowds of international sporting events, on churches and on national and local government offices.

[TheOfficialBren]

The legend of the Saltire -

Believed to be the oldest flag in Europe, the origin of the flag comes from an old legend. Tradition has it that the flag originated in a battle fought near the East Lothian village of Athelstaneford in AD 832.

An army of Picts and Scots under King Angus invaded the Lothians (at that time still Northumbrian territory), and found itself surrounded by a larger force of Saxons led by Athelstan. Fearing the outcome, King Angus led prayers for deliverance and was rewarded by seeing a cloud formation of a white Saltire against the blue sky.

The king vowed that if, with the saint’s help, he gained victory, then Andrew would thereafter be the patron saint of Scotland. The Scots did win, and the Saltire eventually became the flag of Scotland.

In 2003 the Scottish Parliament specified the official colour of the flag using the international colour coding system and it was decided that the white St Andrew's Cross should appear on an azure background known as Pantone 300.

Along with the royal flag, the Lion Rampant, the Saltire can be seen flying with gusto in the crowds of international sporting events, on churches and on national and local government offices.

Well, there you go. Taken with a very large pinch of salt it still seems to be older than the 1500s. Legends aren't always complete fact but they aren't always fiction. That's the difference between a legend and a myth. A myth is pure fantasy. A legend has some factual basis (even if it's a stretch).

[McElmurry]

McElmurry,

I believe that the Saltire of St. Andrews is much older. If I'm not mistaken it dates to the 9th or 10th century making it the oldest state flag still in use in the Western World. I may be wrong, though.

I edited my post and added "before"in front of "the 16th century" to account for reports the Saltire may have been used on a flag prior to 1503, the date I gleaned from Wikipedia. I guess I did say I was interested in historical facts and legends so I opened the door there.

Thanks for the info Grizzly I had not heard the legend about the flag possibly being used as early as AD 832.

[Grizzly]

Well I do think we need to take it with a large pinch of salt but in the absence of any other info it makes a good story. Perhaps one of our actual scottish scholars could shed some more light?

[Mike_Oettle]

The OfficialBREN wrote: “A myth is pure fantasy.”

According to the widely accepted definition, this is so. But ancient myths are more than mere fantasy.
The best definition I know of the word has it that a myth is the highest form of religious truth.
Many scholars nowadays accept that the accounts of creation (there are at least two distinct stories) in Genesis are myth.

But of course this is a digression and of no bearing on the current discussion.
Regards,
Mike

[TheOfficialBren]

I edited my post and added "before"in front of "the 16th century" to account for reports the Saltire may have been used on a flag prior to 1503, the date I gleaned from Wikipedia. I guess I did say I was interested in historical facts and legends so I opened the door there.

Thanks for the info Grizzly I had not heard the legend about the flag possibly being used as early as AD 832.

No worries, mate. I have wondered about this topic before.