Osprey Men-at-Arms (some kilt errors)

[Hopper250]

OC Richard,

The Roman you met was correct. The average hight of men and women from 2-3000 years ago and today hasn't changed much. When looking at the armor that is on display in museums it is important to remember that most of that armor is doing what it has always done, been on display. Display armor would be made smaller and of lighter less expensive base material. Which allowed for ornate paterning and guilding. The average practical armor looked much like what Heath Ledger wore in "A Knights Tale." Solid, nothing fancy on it in any way, and lightly burnished.

[OC Richard]

About the height thing (which has become its own topic!) I was recently reading an anthropology book which said that when farming was invented there was a sudden decrease in height and life span and a deterioration in health in general: bad teeth, more disease, and so forth. The book went into much detail about the effect of people living in close quarters with each other and with farm animals, and how plagues became common (which were pretty much impossible in hunter-gatherer times when people were spread over a vast landscape in small isolated bands). Also new were famines, which were the result of depending on just a small handful of crops and animals, whereas typical hunter-gatherers ate over 100 different species regularly, meaning that if any one of them was wiped out by some new disease there would be little impact on the human diet. (Think the potato famine, where an entire nation was dependent on a single crop.)

[Father Bill]

OC Richard,

The Roman you met was correct. The average hight of men and women from 2-3000 years ago and today hasn't changed much. When looking at the armor that is on display in museums it is important to remember that most of that armor is doing what it has always done, been on display. Display armor would be made smaller and of lighter less expensive base material. Which allowed for ornate paterning and guilding. The average practical armor looked much like what Heath Ledger wore in "A Knights Tale." Solid, nothing fancy on it in any way, and lightly burnished.

Umm, not at the Royal Ontario Museum where the armour at that time was dented and labelled for who wore it. The mystery deepens!

[David Host]

Back to the inaccuracies of the Osprey books: I love them to death, but indeed they must be taken with a grain of salt (a fist sized grain when it comes to some of their medieval publications, especially the McBride illustrations).

[Farmer Jones]

I am not familiar with the Osprey books, but the subject of historical accuracy, especially with modern visual arts, such as cinema, has often interested me. A majority of people cannot get to places like V&A to see examples of real clothing from an era and must rely on illustrations. The pieces that get preserved tend to be display pieces and upper end fashions. So beyond contemporary illustrations and a few fashion items, the majority of people only see what is interpreted into modern visual art by costumers and illustrators. It takes intimate knowledge to take apart some illustrations and show to an uninformed person all of the licence taken by (and ignorance of ) the artist.

Societal prosperity has not been even throughout human history and while some places had plenty, at the same time others had little. I have personal experience of how war and famine lead to starvation and stunted growth. I also have travelled and seen that despite having enough food, some societies lack some nutrients and tend not to reach their genetic potential. I think the point about the size of soldiers from different societies at different points in history reflects much more their diet and lifestyle than it does any change in genetic potential of humans.

[georgeetta]

I 'd rather read any osprey than most today's outdoor mags written by "college grads" . A lot of their ..illustration are copies of well known photos in other (better more expansive) books ..still has merit. I liked the highland clansman ones ..the y got into oddball pre 1800's tartans as an idea ..so you saw some really odd combos you'd never've dreamt about ..but ..study maurier's culloden for colors ..but look at a "caledonian or jacobite" tartan though authentic ..looks like a modern idea .

I like john prebble book professor was wwii navy intellignece and rated them highly as the way to do historic fictiono ..my frustrated ivy league prof said all history taught was ..hist fiction ! One way or other .

Stature
there's abbc histpory of scotland out 10 parts littel highlands really ..essentially scots traditionally starved ..being overshadowed by neighbors ..dem guys ..

Most black watch soldiers accroding to lt col macculloch i think were 5'-2.5" and even teenage us kids are prolly well past their body fat content ..they prolly had none ..france is the primo nutrition country adn theri bodies deal better with nutrition ..or italians ..being center of world trade for 1500 yrs ..or so. Whne potatoes came to europe survival went instantly up by 30% ..likewise bad potatoe yeasr in scotland about 1700 i thnk made 25% mortality ..look that one up ..what they alluded to in my rob roy book . I have rad there were scots in clans at 6' when bl watch said average young man 17-22 joined, also highlnads were a cattle economy in old days ..like africans were on ..plains travel shows or national georgraphic sticth things together whats' like what ..how's this highland guy in mountains here like a similiar living highlander in 1700 ?? Loo k at civil war in usa pics of soldiers no beer bellies ..5'7" or so ..hard bodies ..no fat ..no money either !! ..stature of highlnader also controlled by mountian travel ..up and down those hills (mountains) ..took calories..cold weather living took calories ..prevented ..heighth growth ..prebbel i think said most highlanders in 1700 before never went more than 3 glens away in their life ..

You'd like a read on "glencoe" by john prebble . Covers 1000 years of highlanders to cover a story about 1 night of history ..

If you wnat a crash course watch the history of scotalnd bbc 10 part ..thta's neat

also macneil ..history english language ..they do some scotland ..

Lt col macculloch's books .

Arygylls ..regimental history

scottish regiments ditto all regiments

mutiny prebble ..

Culloden ditto

listening to my uncles talk about ww2 ..national servic ein malaya ..littel things ..about gear ..bonnets ..details ..rum rations ..punishment ..awol ..paras ..traingin ..barracks ..pipers ..officers ..not in books ..

Sons of the mountains ..lt col iain macculloch ..regiments about time of french indian war in usa ..the lads, food , duties ..albnay ny winter 1755 or such ..new york combat ..pennsylvania combat theaters ..

Roger's rangers had many highlanders in and out ..battle on snoshoes several black watch ..2 father sons 1 son campbell kia 1757 battle ti country club .

Battle of quebec ..prebble ..highalnders s ale cliffs to top plains of abraham and last huge battle -detail prebble ..

History of scotland ront mackie ..history dept ..glasgow unvi 30 yrs ..

Tartan book ..pics of mid 1750's portraits ..and post ..ban portraits ..clearances portraits ..

They also mentioned ..prebble how ..supplier s would cheat the soldiers in supplying them ..originally the soldiers got ..36' of cloth abotu 28" width cut half sewed in middel to make a belted plaid ..5' wide 18' long ..on a guy 5'2" ..as time went on ..rich guys would ..go cheap on rasing a regiment ..then sell as a ready unti to the gov't ready for batt;e and make money ..post napolean period i think ..as they were ..army of occupation breifly ..the kitls were often as in lots ..shown so short frecvnh women got theri eyeful ..male anatomy being mid thigh height ..and a normal kilt not a belted plaid ..

Study the 1850 pics of soldiers in edinburg clastle ..shows very early regiments and how their unifrom was still evolving .

D