Which tartan for MacClive?

[Nathan]

So, I sent an email to Houston traditional kilt makers who list MacClive as a sept of Stewart of Appin, and asked for his source. This is a relevant excerpt from his reply:

Hi Nathan,
Yes, it is a sept of Stewart this is the work of Dr. Philip D. Smith phD, fsic, gts, fsa scot, past Governor of the STA tartan. For me, I class him as god on tartan.

http://www.tartansauthority.com/tart...3&key=macclive

[MacCorquodale]

Excellent! Thank you so much for all your hard work!
You cannot imagine how grateful I am!

[figheadair]

[QUOTE=Nathan;1233352]So, I sent an email to Houston traditional kilt makers who list MacClive as a sept of Stewart of Appin, and asked for his source. This is a relevant excerpt from his reply:

Hi Nathan,
Yes, it is a sept of Stewart this is the work of Dr. Philip D. Smith phD, fsic, gts, fsa scot, past Governor of the STA tartan. For me, I class him as god on tartan.

Oh dear . History based on local phone books!

[MacCorquodale]

[QUOTE=figheadair;1233451]

So, I sent an email to Houston traditional kilt makers who list MacClive as a sept of Stewart of Appin, and asked for his source. This is a relevant excerpt from his reply:

Hi Nathan,
Yes, it is a sept of Stewart this is the work of Dr. Philip D. Smith phD, fsic, gts, fsa scot, past Governor of the STA tartan. For me, I class him as god on tartan.

Oh dear . History based on local phone books!

What do you mean?

[Nathan]

Oh dear . History based on local phone books!

I didn't post that email reply to say "case closed" but rather to get to the bottom of the claim that's out there about the Stewart of Appin connection. I was hoping you'd weigh in with some further information. Are you familiar with Dr. Smith? Is he still living? Is his scholarship generally respected? Is there any way I might be able to follow up with him and determine his evidence for the claim? To reenforce the OP's question, what do you mean when you say history based on local phone books?

[figheadair]

I do know Phil although I haven't seen him for several years. He is still alive but age catches up on us all and I understand he is not too well these days and I doubt very much that you’d get a satisfactory answer to an enquiry but you could try. Unfortunately I don’t have his current contact details.

My comment was based on first-hand knowledge of some of Phil's research for Tartan for Me (TFM), probably 25-30 years ago now, when he travelled around Scotland and used the local telephone books as a source for names which he then associated with local Clan and District tartans. I recall Alasdair Campbell of Airds, the clan historian's, outrange at a number of names being associated with the Campbells which he knew from personal experience were families that had recently moved to the area from outside Scotland. Taking one generation living in an area some 250 after the end of the clan system as the basis for clan association is not a reasonable justification.

Phil Smith also used many of the previous historical lists in drawing up TFM, which my father used to call 'Tartan for Everyone'. The book met a need at a time when people were increasingly interested in researching Scottish ancestry and continues to do so but it needs to be used as a generic guide and not taken as gospel. Unfortunately the trade often do just that as it helps them sell more stuff. Good for them but as a historical resource TFM is seriously flawed IMHO.

[Nathan]

Well MacCorquodale,

I think I've gone as far as I can to help you unravel the mystery. It is indeed possible that your family emigrated to Scotland after the end of the clan system. I think it is also possible that your family name is derived from Mac Leibhe/Dunnsleibhe. The thing is that I'm only deducing based on similar looking words and while this is solid enough logic to pursue a lead, the theory has not been corroborated to my satisfaction. The fact that the Scottish MacLeays/Livingstons and Irish MacLeaves/MacLevees/DunLevys both claim to derive their name from "Dunnshiebhe" is worth looking into but I seem to have hit a dead end based on Peter MacDonald's (figheadair) post above.

If you go with an Ayrshire district tartan, nobody can fault you for that. That is where your family comes from in Scotland and you know that for sure. Many families from Scotland were not part of the clan system and there is no shame in not belonging to a Highland clan.

If you choose Stewart of Appin, you can always point to the fact that it is on a published list, but you would seemingly be building your house on soft ground and passing on a tradition in your family that may turn out to be erroneous.

If it was me, I'd design and register a MacClive tartan and pay to have some woven. That way the next time some MacClive somewhere on earth went looking for his tartan, he would find it.

Best of luck Mr. MacClive!

[figheadair]

Of course the other option would be to wear the MacCorquodale tartan, a variation of Wilsons' No230 or Argyle.

[Nathan]

Of course the other option would be to wear the MacCorquodale tartan, a variation of Wilsons' No230 or Argyle.

That's interesting. The OP said, "my Great-grandfather, on my Grandmother's side, is a MacCorquodale". Would you really recommend a tartan associated with a great grandparent when he has a paternal alternative with a recent known link to Scotland?

I find it interesting to know how these traditions are interpreted by different people. Where I grew up, you always went with your father's side, unless he wasn't of Scottish origin. In that case, people either found affinity with the Cape Breton tartan, the Nova Scotia tartan or their mother's name.

In addition to MacDonald, I have in my recent lineage MacNeil, MacInnes, MacDougall, Gillis, Thompson etc... but I wouldn't wear those tartans because I'm a MacDonald.