Which tartan for MacClive?

**MacCorquodale** · 12th May 14, 08:08 PM

BTW, Nathan and all, I very much appreciate all of your help and don't want to be "that guy" that argues against suggestions and help given. I just very much doubt the Irish connection.

I really can't see my family having a problem with being Irish if that was the case, but they were so proud of being from the Scottish highlands it was mentioned often during the little time I got to be around them.

I wish I knew more but outside of My Grandfather's parents and his birthplace, I'm stumped.

**Nathan** · 12th May 14, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by MacCorquodale

BTW, Nathan and all, I very much appreciate all of your help and don't be "that guy" that argues against suggestions and help given. I just very much doubt the Irish connection.

I really can't see my family having a problem with being Irish if that was the case, but they were so proud of being from the Scottish highlands it was mentioned often during the little time I got to be around them.

I wish I knew more but outside of My Grandfather's parents and his birthplace, I'm stumped.

Fair enough, and if they were from Aberdeenshire, they were from the Highlands by some definitions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Highlands

There's also a good possibility they had no idea about the Irish connection. The Highland clan system ended after 1745. If a family had come to Scotland from Ireland in say 1770 and then moved to the New World in say 1900, would they not consider themselves Scots? After a couple of generations of marrying Scots would not the Irish arrival story be a bit of a footnote?

I have a Canadian friend who is married and living in Cambodia. He's Canadian and hangs out with the other ex-pat Canadians there. The fact that his family came to Canada from Ireland and to Ireland from Wales a couple of hundred years before that probably doesn't come up in conversation much. I'll bet if he stays there, his descendants will know he was Canadian and that will likely be the end of it. See what I'm saying?

I'm just saying to follow the evidence and try to be open to wherever it takes you.

**MacCorquodale** · 12th May 14, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Nathan

Fair enough, and if they were from Aberdeenshire, they were from the Highlands by some definitions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Highlands

There's also a good possibility they had no idea about the Irish connection. The Highland clan system ended after 1745. If a family had come to Scotland from Ireland in say 1770 and then moved to the New World in say 1900, would they not consider themselves Scots? After a couple of generations of marrying Scots would not the Irish arrival story be a bit of a footnote?

I have a Canadian friend who is married and living in Cambodia. He's Canadian and hangs out with the other ex-pat Canadians there. The fact that his family came to Canada from Ireland and to Ireland from Wales a couple of hundred years before that probably doesn't come up in conversation much. I'll bet if he stays there, his descendants will know he was Canadian and that will likely be the end of it. See what I'm saying?

I'm just saying to follow the evidence and try to be open to wherever it takes you.

Well, that is all fine and I'm open to the possibility, but I'd still like to see some hard proof why we should throw Mr. Smith's research out the window first.

Something better than anecdotal accounts of "first hand knowledge" and my father called it "tartans for everyone."

Perhaps Peter could fill us in on something a bit more in the way of evidence that Mr. Smith's research is bunk.

Using phone records doesn't strike me as any less valid than any other type of record as a research tool. I mean, are census records also not to be used to try to trace back?

I highly doubt that someone as well known and with such acclaim and awards as well as degrees is such a sloppy historian as to just see who lives there now to proclaim who belongs to a clan. That dog just doesn't hunt.

Sorry if I'm ruffling feathers here but it just doesn't make sense.

**MacCorquodale** · 12th May 14, 10:49 PM

Oh and as for Aberdeenshire, I don't find much other than my grandfather being born there and that is it. So, it is doubtful they originated there.

**MacCorquodale** · 12th May 14, 11:01 PM

This is a link to Mr. Smith's credentials on the tartan authority:

http://www.tartansauthority.com/rese...p-d-smith-jnr/

A link that isn't his own website as far as I know and one that has been referred to in this thread as credible besides their CYA policy.

It's gonna take some real evidence to throw his research out in my eyes.

Anyway, I'm going to bow out of this thread unless something else happens in the meantime that seems to hurt the credibility of Mr. Smith.

I appreciate your help immensely, Nathan and all. Thank you!

**Downunder Kilt** · 12th May 14, 11:16 PM

Hi MacCorquodale, could you give us the record of your granfathers birth. I have gone throught the 1841 to 1891 census for Scotland and do not get a hit for MacClive anywhere. In the 1851 I get a MacLive family in Gamrie -Banffshire where the father and son are listed as Coopers
The village is in the same part of Scotland as Fraserburgh (within 60 miles) but I cannot find the family again in subsequent census. The son James was 16 at the census, so could possibly be yor GGF. James father is named William, born 1800 in Glasgow. Cheers

**MacCorquodale** · 12th May 14, 11:30 PM

Yeah, no problem.

His name was Ian Robert McClive. He was born in 1909 in Fraserburgh. This comes from Scotland's people statutory births. His father was Thomas Edward McClive and he was listed as a journeyman Cooper. His mother's name was Hutcheson.

**figheadair** · 13th May 14, 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by MacCorquodale

Well, that is all fine and I'm open to the possibility, but I'd still like to see some hard proof why we should throw Mr. Smith's research out the window first.

Something better than anecdotal accounts of "first hand knowledge" and my father called it "tartans for everyone."

Perhaps Peter could fill us in on something a bit more in the way of evidence that Mr. Smith's research is bunk.

Using phone records doesn't strike me as any less valid than any other type of record as a research tool. I mean, are census records also not to be used to try to trace back?

I highly doubt that someone as well known and with such acclaim and awards as well as degrees is such a sloppy historian as to just see who lives there now to proclaim who belongs to a clan. That dog just doesn't hunt.

Sorry if I'm ruffling feathers here but it just doesn't make sense.

Without going through TFM that's difficult but we've been here before - see post #6 and others http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...ability-66309/

**ASinclair** · 13th May 14, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by figheadair

Without going through TFM that's difficult but we've been here before - see post #6 and other http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...ability-66309/

Thanks for the link to this useful thread.

**MacCorquodale** · 1st June 14, 02:43 AM

Well, after much digging on Scotland's people and other sites, I have McClive in Ayr going all the way back to 1704 with a Margaret, born of a George McClive and a Jean Kennedy that seems to trace to my grandfather, interestingly one day after my birthday on February 10. There are also many McClive's in the area afterwards.

Since Stewart of Appin is also located in the same area it becomes obvious that the research that places McClive(MacClive) with Stewart of Appin is not based on modern phone books or censuses.

Is it possible that the clan's records are incorrect?