Confederate tartan anachronisms

[ShaunMaxwell]

Even if they did, finding one of these period correct sporrans for sale can be a daunting task. Not many of the well known (or lesser known for that matter) kilt shops carry such an item.

I dunno... I just did a Google search for "Civil War era sporran" and immediately found two (reputable) vendors selling a reproduction of the 79th New York Civil War sporran. (The Scottish Trading Company and Burnett's & Struth) Now, I know that's the wrong army, but certainly the right era.

The cost of the sporran, however, did make my eyes water. I suspect it would less expensive to have Artificer make one!

Cheers,

SM

[AFS1970]

I think at that price a custom made one would definitely be worth it.

Now having a look at that one, which is relatively plain looking compared to some horsehair ones I have seen, I could probably also get a modern one that was similar for quite a bit less, and it would probably (while still being anachronistic) look better than wearing a modern civilian sporran.

As for the one from the 79th being the wrong army, since it has no crest on it, who is to say the same type would not have been worn by both armies?

[nagod]

going for a theme does not require historical accuracy(especially when it might require a 600$ sporran).next lets discuss the accuracy of the kilted stormtroopers.

[macwilkin]

Something to keep in mind: In general, displays of ethnicity in the mid-19th century United States tended to be at the community level, such where a fairly large number of a particular ethnicity lived through churches, fraternal/social organizations, militia companies, etc.

The late Fernec Szasz, author of "Scots in the North American West, 1790-1917" states that the Scots as a rule were more accepted by their White Anglo-Saxon Protestant neighbors due to their shared Protestantism than the large number of Southern Irish or German immigrants who began arriving in the United States in the 1840s after the famine and the '48 Revolutions. However, Scottish immigration, especially from the Highlands, never was a large movement after the Revolution as it was to places like Canada, Australia, etc.

When I was reenacting and doing living history presentations (the latter never includes mock combat scenarios) for the National Park Service, I displayed my ethnic heritage the way my Scottish great-great-grandfather did when serving with the 11th Iowa Infantry: by carrying a period-copy of the works of Burns in my haversack. I took the idea from an article in the reenactor magazine "The Camp Chase Gazette" that suggested carrying a period rosary or wearing a period Marian medal was much more likely for Irish immigrants than the over-the-top displays of Irish harps on uniforms (bejabbers and begorrah!) that you see at reenactments.

Such symbols certainly were found in some (but not all) ethnic regiments, especially on regimental flags. If I remember correctly, the ubiquitous Irish harp badge sold by many a Civil War sutler is actually a post-war design for the Ancient Order of Hibernians (AOH) regalia.

T.

[OC Richard]

I just did a Google search for "Civil War era sporran" and immediately found two (reputable) vendors selling a reproduction of the 79th New York Civil War sporran. (The Scottish Trading Company and Burnett's & Struth) Now, I know that's the wrong army, but certainly the right era.

I'll wager that neither is Civil War era. The 79th New York sporrans made by L&M and copied in India aren't Civil War era, but in fact the type worn by that regiment in the 1870s.

Yes that design is a fairly typical mid-19th century sporran and would be fine for a Civil War period civilian. But it should not be worn as part of the Civil War era uniform of the 79th New York.

Thing is, the 79th had two almost completely different Full Dress uniforms. One was worn from 1858 to 1861. When the regiment was mobilized for war service Full Dress was discontinued. After the war Full Dress was revived but with a different Glengarry, jacket, sporran, and hose. Spats were introduced post-war.

I had L&M make me a reproduction of the genuine 1858-1861 79th NY sporran, and explained and sent them numerous photos proving that it was the only style worn pre-war, and that the style L&M was making was post-war and thus incorrect for the Civil War period. They made my one, but still continue to make the 1870s style and sell it as a Civil War sporran. They know better.

Here are some 79th NY members after the war. Only the man on the right is wearing the 1858 model sporran, and it is the only type correct for the Civil War era. (However the badge is a later addition.) He's also wearing the 1858 model Glengarry, with two rows of red/white/blue dicing. (Oddly, their post-war uniform used the Glengarry of the 93rd Highlanders, not the 79th.)



Back to Confederate tartans, I've come across two variants. I wonder why.





If the yellow/red/blue portion is intended to reflect the major branches of the Army, the blue should be a sky blue as in the upper version.

I'm guessing that the red/white/blue portion is intended to reflect the various Confederate flags.

[Tarheel]

OC Richard, your last statements concerning the blue color in the two types of tartan bears merit. The darker blue would represent the battle flag "Bars and Stars" stripe. I believe the other observations of yours are correct.
But!, in North Carolina, the lighter blue is known as Carolina blue (proudly announced from University alumnus that will proclaim God's choice of color for the Heavens during the day light hours.)
Oddly enough, the State of Mississippi still celebrates Confederate Memorial day as a holiday. The University here in Oxford has several groups that dress in the uniforms of two units of college students that entered the war (The Lamar Rifles and the University Greys.) A kilted "Johnny Reb" would seem alien to the folks here among the antebellum setting of mint juleps and Southern Belles.

[Balaamsass51]

Let us go to the source for a change. There are 7 listings for "confederate" tatrans. This is the Scottish Tartan Authority listing for Dr Smiths fine tartan:

Name of Tartan:
Confederate Memorial (Military)

Alternative Name: Sons of Confederate Veterans
ITI Number: 4195
Category: American Military
Designer / Source: Smith, Dr. Phil
Date: 1995
Slog: BNR:WBW
Colour Sequence: BNRNYNRWBW
Thread Count: LB24-N8-R8-N8-YY4-N112-R36-WW2-B8-WW6

Confederate Memorial (Military)
Notes: Designed by Dr. Philip Smith in 1995. Grey is the colour of the Confederate States of America. The fields represent the Confederate Army in line of battle-- light blue for infantry, flanked by red for artilllery and yellow for outriding cavalry. The red field represents the Confederate flag in true proportions. Registered with TECA. to Phil Smith on 10-08-96. Sample in STA Johnston Collection labelled "Sons of Confederate Veterans". D C Dalgliesh of Selkirk has exclusive rights to the weaving in wool (Jan 2005). Available in cotton from Peter Wilson in SC, USA. Cotton sample from Lochcarron. July 2011: weaving rights probably being transferred to Fraser & Kirkbright of Vancouver. At this time Phil Smith mentioned the colour name of 'Butternut' referring to the ground colour of this tartan. Quite wrong apparently - the colour is 'Confederate grey' and the 'Butternut' name came from a period in the Civil War when some of the soldiers were dressed in fabric coloured with a dye from the Butternut tree - the grey was very scarse and was reserved for the officers.

I hope this helps the discussion. You could also contact Dr Smith.

[OC Richard]

I find it hard to imagine that the two tartans I posted pics of above were designed by different people, because they are the same tartan. The only difference is the width of one blue stripe, and the shade of blue used.

Do such small alterations rise to the level of "design"?

It suggests to me that somebody did a knockoff of the original tartan.