Clan tartan ties, unforgivable sin?

[kingandrew]

Luke,

The outfit looks great. For some reason I always thought you looked like your clean-shaven avatar and thus didn't recognize you in the picture

Dollander,
I think it's great that you have put all this out there and expressed yourself so clearly. I have several thoughts in response:

1. I can totally see where you get a class snobbery vibe from ideas about what is "done" or not. However, I really don't think that is the crux of the issue to most on this forum. As Jock says, the man on a budget can't afford to buy items of poor taste or quality, since he won't be able to upgrade them for a long time. There is nothing wrong with renting, but there are some things that often come from rental shops that don't look too good. Sadly, most rental shops are much more focused on short-term profit than on advising customers on how to look their best so they become repeat customers. Of course the rental firms are in business and need to make a profit. But it surely would be no more expensive for them to offer helpful advice to their clients. And it is certainly quite possible to dress poorly in expensive clothes of one's own.

2. I am not a fan of white kilt hose, but I have a pair and have worn them at times. When I first started wearing the kilt, I read (I think in Thompson's "So You're Going to Wear the Kilt") that white was considered the preferred color for formal events. So I got some, in order to respect the formal conventions. It does make a sort of sense, as it goes with the fairly austere black/white palette of most formal wear (aside from our tartan kilts and plaids). As I've learned more, I've experimented with other colors and plan to get some argyle hose, as these look more formal to me. So our tastes will evolve and reading the posts on this forum can educate us to details we might otherwise overlook.

3. I don't know why Springsteen wore a tux t-shirt to the Grammies. I have little regard for the Grammy ceremony, but it would seem not going would be a more effective protest than dressing in a tacky and disrespectful manner. I love Springsteen's songwriting and recordings, but I would not be a customer of any "Boss Designer Wear" apparel he would offer. I feel the same way about the many clothing lines endorsed by talented musicians who are not talented clothing designers. Every "red carpet" photoessay shows many examples of rich and famous people who haven't bothered to learn the conventions of formal wear and unfortunately look sloppy or like "fashion victims" as a result.

4. I share your appreciation for Bad Religion and other punk rock artists. And I like to take risks and express myself in my appearance. But I think formal wear is one place where such options are pretty limited. After all, if it gets too innovative or outside the rules, it isn't formal any more. Frankly, wearing a kilt rather than a tuxedo to a formal event is about as innovative as is probably advisable. "Formal" and "uniform" share the same root, form, which means "shape." In both cases, following a specific set of guidelines is what creates the sense of everyone sharing the "form." Formalwear is the closest most civilians will get to a uniform.

5. I think that the members here are all looking to be more knowledgeable and skillful in their kilt-wearing. The comments presented are more about appreciating when this is done well or fine-tuning where it could perhaps be done better. The goal (I hope) is not to canonize a few and castigate everyone else. Rather, discussing and questioning what makes a great outfit great will help me learn how to better express myself in my own outfits and what to look for in items I add to my wardrobe. Understanding the details that make Jimi Hendrix or Mozart stand out so much can help me be a better musician and/or listener.

All that said, I think it is important for us to question why we have such strong opinions on some things and to avoid judging a person's deeper character based only on his or her attire. Oscar Wilde said (tongue-in-cheek), "A well-tied tie is the first serious step in life," but surely it is not the last or most important step.

Andrew

[Luke MacGillie]

Luke,

The outfit looks great. For some reason I always thought you looked like your clean-shaven avatar and thus didn't recognize you in the picture

Andrew

I keep a seasonal beard, once the public interpretation/reenacting season is done here, usually around the first weekend in October, I quit shaving till March, sometimes as late as July. Once, I took a couple years off of 18th Century reenacting and let it grow almost to the point of it being its own garment!

[kingandrew]

My own beard started as a seasonal idea: the male teachers at my school agreed to observe No-Shave November to raise awareness of men's cancers. At the end of the month, I was the only one who didn't look like a homeless guy. And then the school asked me to play Santa at the Christmas party, so I went another month without shaving.

At the end of December I asked my wife how she liked the beard. She really liked it and urged me to keep it. So I've had it since. I can say that not shaving certainly simplifies my life, although the mustache does require trimming on a nearly every day basis to keep my whiskers out of my food.

The garment-length bear would be well-suited to Civil War reenacting, if you're trying to balance your facial hair and living history pursuits

Andrew

[uallas5]

I have no problem with the tartan tie, as long as it looks good. Examples of it not looking good I think are mixing colors, i.e. Ancient tie with modern color kilt, that sort of thing. Another would be mixing hunting and non-hunting tartans though this maybe coming from the Wallace. I've seen people try to wear both the hunting green and modern red at the same time and I think they just look like something went wrong on the way to the Christmas play.

My main problem with Mr. Connery's picture (and this is mentioned by Fossilhunter) is the wearing of a full length tie with a waistcoat. I personally would never do that, tartan or otherwise, kilt or trousers. Myself I have a modern Wallace bowtie to go with my modern Wallace kilt when I'm fully kitted up. Are the 2 reds "exactly" same? No. But you'd be hard pressed to see that since my bowtie is sitting about 2 feet above the top of kilt (I'm 6' 4"). I don't think I would care if they were closer together either.

[Tarheel]

My main problem with Mr. Connery's picture (and this is mentioned by Fossilhunter) is the wearing of a full length tie with a waistcoat.

I agree that the tie and waistcoat you mention are problematic. They seem to conflict in length and style.
That said, I have vests that a long tie seem to fit and compliment when worn with my kilt.

I want to thank you for your comment (I see it is your first post) even if you and I joined the Rabble on same day a few years ago. Keep providing your thoughts as we all need to see things through different eyes at times.

[carlisle401]

The wearing of tartan above the kilt seems to be changing. S NCOs in the RRoS wear tartan waistcoats with their mess dress. Scottish Infantry Veterans wear their Regimental tartan waistcoat, although mostly with their trews, some do wear a tartan waistcoat with their kilt. I have a Hunting Stewart bowtie, never worn yet.

Of course one of the problems of personalities wearing their kilt, right or wrong people will copy it. I find this happening more and more. At least no tartan in his tie.
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[Graeme H]

Ultimately this argument comes down to Fashion vs Style. Dollander rightly pointed out that fashion is subjective, although I don't believe all fashion to be art; in my mind art should be conscious and too many fashion designers these days simply want to make a statement and have no knowledge of the history or etiquette involved in the attire they are designing. They thoughtlessly and recklessly design based on aesthetic only. There's a reason why tailors on Savile Row have such a sterling reputation while those in the know turn their nose up at many high fashion brands (rightly so, buying something based on exclusivity is the bane of style). So fashion is subjective, yes... But STYLE on the other hand, is timeless.

Given my vocation it may be a little biased, but all you need to do is look to the bespoke community to see that style doesn't change, only fashion. While there is a trend for suits to get skinnier and skinnier, in the bespoke world you will still see pleated trousers, wide lapels and turnups. A tailor fits the individual, where fashion fits the moment. And anyone is free to express themselves with whatever style of suit they wish to wear, as long as it fits them properly. It's needless details thrown in simply to draw attention that make me cringe. There's a lot to be said for subtlety. For me at least, if a suit is well fitted and well conceived then it sings. It's amazing how much love a simple grey suit can get online if it has strong, clean lines.

Regarding Mr Connery's outfit, from a style point of view (what I would refer to as sartorial etiquette), the real faux pas is that a tie is being worn with what is essentially evening wear. It would possibly be considered acceptable (although not correct) if it was worn with a higher fastening waistcoat to keep the tie in check. However a bow tie is really the only thing that should be worn with a Charlie, tartan or not.

I typically recommend a tartan tie or bow tie as a way of expressing oneself when NOT wearing a kilt, with a black dinner jacket for example. However I see nothing wrong with wearing one with a kilt should someone wish to, as long as sartorial etiquette is observed. The saving grace to Mr Connery's outfit is that it appears that his tie has been cut from the same heavy twill cloth as his kilt, so they match perfectly. This does make tying the tie a little harder, but perhaps this is the way to go should someone wish to double up on their tartan! A similar outfit with a tweed jacket and waistcoat would be perfectly acceptable, especially at a wedding or similar event where the tartan is a centre point or theme.

Fashion is subjective, Style is timeless.