Daywear Coatees?

[McCracken140]

[QUOTE=Bruce Scott;1358198]Here are a couple of photos of pipe bands in short jackets. Those shown in the lower picture seem to be somewhat in the style of a BD jacket.



C. 1900, South Australian Caledonian Pipe Band

[\QUOTE]

I suppose that jacket is now sold as the GT Doublet.

[Laird O'the Cowcaddens]

I have been dressing in British BD's & Ike jkts with my kilts for years. I have found that old Mess jkts are great too, I just dye them in various colours. The Battledress & Ik's are great for Fall & Winter and the Mess jkts are ideal for the warmer months.

[kingandrew]

The Canadian pipe band picture with the plaid pattern jackets reminds me of one of my favorite jackets. It came from Lands End, which called it a "Harris Tweed Varsity Jacket." So it's shaped like the classic varsity/letterman style jacket seen in US high schools, with the knit cuffs, collar, and waistband (but fabric sleeves rather than the traditional leather). It is made all of Harris Tweed, which means it goes well with the kilt and is reasonably warm. Lengthwise, it hangs to wear the top of the hip/jeans waist, so it just covers my kilt belt and reaches the top of my pleats in back. So for informal daywear in cool weather it is my go-to kilt jacket.

I've always thought the Ike and mess jackets were a good look with kilts, but they are not always easy to find. Another style I think would look good is the so-called "Spencer" jacket that was somewhat popular in the 1980s. But the mess and Spencer jackets are more formalwear than daywear, to my eyes. I like Steve's Belgian chef jacket, but it also looks a little "dressier" to me, although I imagine much depends on the material used.

I really like all the looks posted in this thread. Keep them coming!

Andrew

[The Q]

The late Sir Tommy Macpherson was often seen wearing a battle dress blouse when wearing the kilt at home. No doubt if you " google " him, a picture will be found.

Sir T, Macpherson deserved to be able to wear a battle dress blouse any time he wanted...

[Jock Scot]

Sir T, Macpherson deserved to be able to wear a battle dress blouse any time he wanted...

Quite so. Although, I doubt that Sir Tommy ever wore a BD blouse in a civilian context other than it being a useful form of an "at home" outdoor kilt attire point of view.

[OC Richard]

I recently read an article about THCD in the context of piping competitions, in which the author stated:
“Another personal dislike of mine is the cut-off or shortened jacket, which a small number of competitors sometimes wear. By this I mean a jacket which looks like a normal kilt jacket from the shoulder down but stops short at the waist front and back, reminiscent of the old army battledress blouse. My objection to such jackets is that they show too much kilt at the front, giving the figure an unbalanced appearance, and at the back they show the stitched upper part of the pleats, which are better not to be seen.”

It sounds like he means a daywear type coatee, as opposed to an eveningwear type such as the PC or a mess jacket. Have you ever seen an example of a daywear coatee, apart from uniforms? What are your thoughts?

To keep our terminology straight, a coatee has tails in back. It's most familiar to us today in the form of the Prince Charlie coatee (which, when if first appeared c1910 was simply called "the coatee").

I don't know what a "daywear type coatee" might be. The author is clearly not addressing the coatee, because he states the jacket ends at the waist front and back. Jackets that end at the waist front and back were called shell jackets and were extremely popular in a number of armies in the mid-19th century. A close relative of the shell jacket is the Mess Dress jacket.

Here is the military white shell jacket on the left (which descended from the 18th century sleeved waistcoat) and the scarlet shell jacket on the right. Shell jackets such as seen on the right were usually issued to mounted troops but were so popular in the mid-19th century that foot soldiers often adopted them.



Here c1850 you can see the scarlet coatee and white shell jacket worn by Other Ranks, and the scarlet shell jacket worn by mounted officers.



Here's a group of officers in the 1890s showing the range of dress including the blue patrols, the full dress doublet, and the scarlet shell jacket



Back to the article, the author also doesn't state what fabric this waist-length jacket is made from, so we don't know if the jacket he saw was a Day Dress or Evening Dress jacket.

The author is clear that the jacket he saw was not a Battledress blouse, but rather a jacket that ended at the waist in the manner of a Battledress blouse.

In truth, without seeing a photograph we can't be sure just what the author is talking about.

We do have one local piper who competes at the highest level who wears what appears to be an old Mess Dress jacket. It does stand out as looking incongruous, but he's so respected as a player that people give his dress a pass.



Pipe Major Evan MacRae, longtime Army man and piping Gold Medallist, did have an interesting civilian Evening Dress tunic that ended at the waist front and back. It was double-breasted, had open lapels, and plaited silver and black shoulder cords. I can't imagine anyone criticizing MacRae's dress!

Here he is, on the right.

[CollinMacD]

I have done extensive research for years on many types of U.S. military uniforms. Area of expertise is the 19th and early 20th century. One jacket often overlooked, that was so popular early 19th century. peaking in popularity in the U.S. in the 1850's France, Spain, and England, around the 1650's, was the Bolero Jacket. The same style carried through to WWI, especially with bands and Drill Teams, both US and British, It was the French who introduced the Bolero in the Military, Spain picking it up next, then England, and so on, by the mid 19th century it was so popular, it became a fashion icon, being the latest fashion rage of women using the jacket on evening gowns and day dresses.

Often the bolero has fancy embroidery, trefoil designs called tombeaux, in gold, yellow, blue or red. This was a very short jacket, extending just below the rib cage, with no functional buttons, but a top collar clasp. Various styles eventually morphed into function buttons, but still maintained the button rows for design and bling, often using round or sphere buttons. Below a Zouave soldier from the American Civil War period, most likely the uniform is pre-Civil War, and he was part of local militia drill team. Notice the jacket.



Here are a few, most will recognize them as French Zouave Jackets, worn through WWI by the French and Algerian Military, but spread to England and US as well. Below is a depiction of the French Zouave, Corps of Africa, during WWI, some of these same uniforms even appeared in WWII.






These are very short jackets, but you can notice how it morphed into the shell jacket, combination of the extension of the Bolero and the shortening of the Frock.. I believe these jackets were post Civil War.





This may seem to be a little off-base for this discussion, especially as we discuss Scottish Jackets of Pipers. There is a direct relationship to Scottish, English and French you will discover as you dig deeper into the bolero jackets origin. The bolero style Jacket was born before the Shell, and was the grandfather of the Shell and Eisenhower Jacket, including many of the shorter jackets worn by the military as they approached WWI. The Bolero jacket has its origins from Algeria's, and north Africa, over to the middle east that because popular in 1200 - 1600, it was their native dreass, before the French adopted the style for many of its Dragoons, and Cavalry units including the Voyageurs (light mounted infantry), Chasseurs, and such, which was quickly adopted by the British, Spainish, and other European Armies, before making its way to the U.S. You will find the same style jacket used by the Spanish, for the matadors wear this style even today, however seems like the Spanish maintained the tails of the frock, shortening the front but keeping tails will into the 19th century. Ottoman adopted the Bolero Jacket from North Africa quick quickly in the 18th and 19th century, especially the Cossacks.

All Bolero jackets originated in North Africa, of all places. Another version of the jacket was called the Chasseur. Below is a photo of a proud American Chasseur (on the right wearing the cap), he is with the 87 Pennsylvania, and was one of the regiments who were awarded the prize of wearing Chasseur a pied uniforms especially imported from France, because of their prowess at drill, during a national competition. This same uniform was allowed during the American Civil War. The solider on the right is part of the 14th Brooklyn, named the "Redlegs" as they wore red trousers. Again the uniform was allowed and worn during the Civil War. Both are examples of the short jacket with the Zouave influence. This same style was used by the British as well as other European Armies. The Crimean war was the first real test and past successfully becoming very popular replacing the longer and cumberson Traditional Frock Coat.



Many bands and drill teams of the 19th Century in the U.S. and Canada, were very poplular pre-Civil War, and the jacket was so popular, many town and city militias adopted the Zouave style uniform for its elite companies or battalions. The French carried on this style through the early 20th century and the Zouave soldiers uniform did not change through WWI. However, over the 19th Century the longer Frock Coat, often worn my many of the Military forces, became obsolete to the Shell jacket or the eight button Militia Jacket. Simply because the soldier had so much leather strapping, catridge box, haversack, canteen, belt with cap box, bayonet and scabbard and so on, it was hard for the soldier to do bayonet drill, or even raise his percussion rifle/musket to shoot, plus the added weight of the jacket, especially as the solider sweat, caused the frock to be very heavy. So using the bolero jacket, modifying it to be waist long turn it into a shell jacket offered more coverage and maneuverability for the soldier to fight. It all started with the original Zouave or Bolero style from North Africa in the late 12th century.

Here is a British, possibly Scottish version of the Bolaro.



So finally, lets talk about the Scottish. The private of the 79th New York Volunteer Infantry below, wears the Scottish full dress of his regiment, including a kilt made out of Cameron of Erracht tartan. For undress, tartan trews were also worn, but trying to find supplies of enough tartan in the U.S. to outfit the entire regiment proved to be a problem. On June 2 1861, when the regiment paraded in Baltimore, one journalist reported that the crowd who had come out to see the 79th in their Scottish uniforms was disappointed because only a third of the regiment were outfitted in Scottish dress. However, if you notice the Jacket is patterned from the New York Style Militia Jacket, first worn by Artillery, then Cavalry, eventually issued to Infantry, trying to eliminate the Frock coat. The Militia Jackets often was considered dress, but was used for battle, as their was shortages of uniforms, and material. Finally the army adopted a standard, non dress jacket. Specificall for battle dress known as the "Sack" , Battle Blouses, or Fatigue Jackets, all considered the same thing, a four button, square fitting jacket with inside breast pocket and collar with brass buttons, usually an 8 ounce steamed wool pressed to broadcloth.




Just thought you might like to know.

[McCracken140]

I had been thinking about this thread the past few weeks, and I concluded that the type of jacket most likely referred to in the excerpt I posted, and one that I would love to wear, would a be a ‘sleeved waistcoat’, similar to a legal waistcoat or bar jacket. I figured a Lovat green number with a square cut hem would be ideal, like the waistcoat that the Duke of Rothesay has been known to wear. However, the only sleeved waistcoats I could find on the internet were legal or court uniforms, so I gave up.

This evening, however, I looked up the late John D. Burgess MBE thinking I would take a look at his Regulation Doublet, and what did I find but a photo of him wearing a Lovat Green sleeved waistcoat with a square cut hem! This is exactly what I was thinking of, minus the pleated breast pockets (they look too informal for me.)

Has anyone seen this type of civilian jacket before? More importantly, does anybody know someone who makes this style of jacket?
Lastly, what is the rabble’s opinion of this jacket?

[gealach]

Is there anything today that resembles a scarlet shell jacket (but maybe in black for a more civilian look)? That jacket looks as smart as it gets.

[Tobus]

I had been thinking about this thread the past few weeks, and I concluded that the type of jacket most likely referred to in the excerpt I posted, and one that I would love to wear, would a be a ‘sleeved waistcoat’, similar to a legal waistcoat or bar jacket. I figured a Lovat green number with a square cut hem would be ideal, like the waistcoat that the Duke of Rothesay has been known to wear. However, the only sleeved waistcoats I could find on the internet were legal or court uniforms, so I gave up.

This evening, however, I looked up the late John D. Burgess MBE thinking I would take a look at his Regulation Doublet, and what did I find but a photo of him wearing a Lovat Green sleeved waistcoat with a square cut hem! This is exactly what I was thinking of, minus the pleated breast pockets (they look too informal for me.)

Has anyone seen this type of civilian jacket before? More importantly, does anybody know someone who makes this style of jacket?
Lastly, what is the rabble’s opinion of this jacket?

I really like the looks of that jacket! I've been looking for something similar.

Just yesterday I came across this webpage: http://www.siobhanmackenzie.com/port...page/archives/

She is a Scottish fashion designer, and her designs are very, shall we say, "fashion forward". Not at all traditional, but they do take some style cues from traditional kilts and jackets. Anyway, I saw this jacket in her gallery and thought the cut of it looked pretty nice (ignoring some of the other frilly details and focusing just on the cut). As best I can tell, this was a bespoke jacket which isn't part of her usual offerings, but it at least points to the fact that she can make them. Take off the tartan facings, narrow the lapels a bit, and a few other tweaks, then it might pass muster for what you're talking about.

Photo credit: Siobhan MacKenzie archive