Scotweb very disappointing

[Steve Ashton]

Botriphnie,

Perhaps you misunderstood. If you would care to look at the title under my name I am the owner of this forum. I am not Nick from ScotWeb and do not represent ScotWeb in any way.

I am stating the policy of the forum. Your beef is with ScotWeb. But you chose to air that beef here on this forum so must abide by the policies of this forum.

If you are unsure of how to post the photos backing up your claim on this forum, please feel free to forward them to me via email and I will post them for you.

steve@xmarksthescot.com

[Botriphnie]

Botriphnie,

Perhaps you misunderstood. If you would care to look at the title under my name I am the owner of this forum. I am not Nick from ScotWeb and do not represent ScotWeb in any way.

I am stating the policy of the forum. Your beef is with ScotWeb. But you chose to air that beef here on this forum so must abide by the policies of this forum.

If you are unsure of how to post the photos backing up your claim on this forum, please feel free to forward them to me via email and I will post them for you.

steve@xmarksthescot.com

Dear Mr Ashton,

I was just about to send the photograph to Scotweb when I realised my mistake and that you actually the owner of the forum and not attached to Scotweb. Thank you for your e-mail address and I will forward the photograph to you via that e-mail. Sorry again for the mis-understanding.

[Steve Ashton]

Botriphnie,

I got your email with this photo. We can now see where some of your confusion comes from.



If you will notice each Tartan is a slightly different color. This is primarily due to the dye lots used by the different weavers.

It appears to my eye that all four are the ancient colorway. The left tie may be the Modern colorway but it is labeled as Ancient. It is possible that this weaver uses colors much darker for their Modern version.
Like this very dark version from another weaver.



There is also the problem with the different names that the weavers use.
One weaver uses the word "modern" to describe the colors they use, when they intend the Tartan to look like it would, when dyed with modern aniline dyes.
They use the word 'ancient' to denote a simulation of what the Tartan may look like if it were dyed with natural dyes.
They then use the word 'weathered' to denote a simulation of what the Tartan may look like if it had been out in the sun and faded.

Other weavers use terms like 'Reproduction' and 'Muted' and even OC for their particular colors.

But these are all the same Tartan.

Then we sometimes run across odd or unique names for the Tartan designs themselves.

The names you found on ScotWeb are different from the names used on the Scottish Register of Tartan. On the Register there are 6 different designs under the name MacIntyre one of them is MacIntyre Hunting, (#2845) but there is no design listed as Old MacIntyre Hunting.





On the ScotWeb site both the MacIntyre Hunting and the Old MacIntyre Hunting are the same design.

MacIntyre Hunting


Old MacIntyre Hunting


Both of these are available in Modern, Ancient, and Reproduction color versions of the exact same Tartan.

So it is possible that one of the things you are running up against is that the fabric your kilt is made from, is from a different weaver than the ties and flashes that you were sent.

You may also notice that on the ScotWeb site there is a Tartan listed as "New MacIntyre Hunting". This is a fabric woven by the Weaving mill Marton Mills in a 12 oz Poly/Rayon blend. This name is different from the name used by the weaver who list this as MacIntyre (New/H).



Please note that these colors are very dark. About like the colors used in the Black Watch Tartan, Modern colorway.

Below are the Ancient, Modern, and Weathered versions of the Black Watch Tartan. And while the colors used are very different, all are exactly the same Tartan.




This is one of the reasons that we suggest that if you want the colors to match exactly, that you order fabric all from the same weaver. Preferably at the same time, so you get fabrics dyed from the same dye lot.


Is there perhaps a label inside your kilt that lists, not the person who sewed the kilt, but the weaving company that wove the fabric? If not, can you inquire from the person who made your kilt, which mill they sourced their fabric from?

[Botriphnie]

Botriphnie,

I got your email with this photo. We can now see where some of your confusion comes from.



If you will notice each Tartan is a slightly different color. This is primarily due to the dye lots used by the different weavers.

It appears to my eye that all four are the ancient colorway. The left tie may be the Modern colorway but it is labeled as Ancient. It is possible that this weaver uses colors much darker for their Modern version.
Like this very dark version from another weaver.



There is also the problem with the different names that the weavers use.
One weaver uses the word "modern" to describe the colors they use, when they intend the Tartan to look like it would, when dyed with modern aniline dyes.
They use the word 'ancient' to denote a simulation of what the Tartan may look like if it were dyed with natural dyes.
They then use the word 'weathered' to denote a simulation of what the Tartan may look like if it had been out in the sun and faded.

Other weavers use terms like 'Reproduction' and 'Muted' and even OC for their particular colors.

But these are all the same Tartan.

Then we sometimes run across odd or unique names for the Tartan designs themselves.

The names you found on ScotWeb are different from the names used on the Scottish Register of Tartan. On the Register there are 6 different designs under the name MacIntyre one of them is MacIntyre Hunting, (#2845) but there is no design listed as Old MacIntyre Hunting.





On the ScotWeb site both the MacIntyre Hunting and the Old MacIntyre Hunting are the same design.

MacIntyre Hunting


Old MacIntyre Hunting


Both of these are available in Modern, Ancient, and Reproduction color versions of the exact same Tartan.

So it is possible that one of the things you are running up against is that the fabric your kilt is made from, is from a different weaver than the ties and flashes that you were sent.

You may also notice that on the ScotWeb site there is a Tartan listed as "New MacIntyre Hunting". This is a fabric woven by the Weaving mill Marton Mills in a 12 oz Poly/Rayon blend. This name is different from the name used by the weaver who list this as MacIntyre (New/H).



Please note that these colors are very dark. About like the colors used in the Black Watch Tartan, Modern colorway.

Below are the Ancient, Modern, and Weathered versions of the Black Watch Tartan. And while the colors used are very different, all are exactly the same Tartan.




This is one of the reasons that we suggest that if you want the colors to match exactly, that you order fabric all from the same weaver. Preferably at the same time, so you get fabrics dyed from the same dye lot.


Is there perhaps a label inside your kilt that lists, not the person who sewed the kilt, but the weaving company that wove the fabric? If not, can you inquire from the person who made your kilt, which mill they sourced their fabric from?

Thank you for printing my photograph for me. My second attachment showed the Scotweb sample of McIntyre Old Hunting Ancient with the exact colours I wanted. The items I got match Scotweb's example of McIntyre Old Hunting Modern. Would you mind publishing my second attachment to clarify the position for readers of your forum?

[Botriphnie]

The following scanned page shows the McIntyre Old Hunting Ancient as shown on Scotweb's tartan finder. It is exactly what I wanted and ordered The item I got was what Scotweb's tartan finder labels McIntyre Old Hunting Modern. I do not understand why I cannot get what Scotweb advertise as available, please see picture.

[figheadair]

The following scanned page shows the McIntyre Old Hunting Ancient as shown on Scotweb's tartan finder. It is exactly what I wanted and ordered The item I got was what Scotweb's tartan finder labels McIntyre Old Hunting Modern. I do not understand why I cannot get what Scotweb advertise as available, please see picture.

The problem with the graphic is just that, it's a computer generated image rather than a photograph of an actual piece of cloth.

Matching an older specimen without a special weave with the dye-lots matched is, unfortunately, always likely to be less that satisfactory.

[Jock Scot]

If it is of any comfort to you, matching assorted garments does not really bother those of us that have been wearing tartan for some time. Why? Well, for precisely the reason you have encountered. A twenty year old tartan is very unlikely to match a fifty year old tartan of the same Clan and a fifty year old tartan is highly unlikely to match closely a new tartan of the same Clan. Unless the cloth is from the same bolt then it is highly unlikely that there will be a match

Again, if its any comfort to you, find some pictures of the Atholl Highlanders------Europe's only private army----- they all wear the same tartan, but quite often-----usually in fact------ the tartan of the kilt will not match their shoulder plaid and its not unusual to see three or four tartans of the same basic Clan tartan, but of different shades, on parade at the same time, but it is still the same tartan. If it does not worry them then perhaps, it should not worry you.

I should also add, that I have no connection with Scotweb, whatsoever.

Hope this helps.

.

[Botriphnie]

Botriphnie,

I got your email with this photo. We can now see where some of your confusion comes from.



If you will notice each Tartan is a slightly different color. This is primarily due to the dye lots used by the different weavers.

It appears to my eye that all four are the ancient colorway. The left tie may be the Modern colorway but it is labeled as Ancient. It is possible that this weaver uses colors much darker for their Modern version.
Like this very dark version from another weaver.



There is also the problem with the different names that the weavers use.
One weaver uses the word "modern" to describe the colors they use, when they intend the Tartan to look like it would, when dyed with modern aniline dyes.
They use the word 'ancient' to denote a simulation of what the Tartan may look like if it were dyed with natural dyes.
They then use the word 'weathered' to denote a simulation of what the Tartan may look like if it had been out in the sun and faded.

Other weavers use terms like 'Reproduction' and 'Muted' and even OC for their particular colors.

But these are all the same Tartan.

Then we sometimes run across odd or unique names for the Tartan designs themselves.

The names you found on ScotWeb are different from the names used on the Scottish Register of Tartan. On the Register there are 6 different designs under the name MacIntyre one of them is MacIntyre Hunting, (#2845) but there is no design listed as Old MacIntyre Hunting.





On the ScotWeb site both the MacIntyre Hunting and the Old MacIntyre Hunting are the same design.

MacIntyre Hunting


Old MacIntyre Hunting


Both of these are available in Modern, Ancient, and Reproduction color versions of the exact same Tartan.

So it is possible that one of the things you are running up against is that the fabric your kilt is made from, is from a different weaver than the ties and flashes that you were sent.

You may also notice that on the ScotWeb site there is a Tartan listed as "New MacIntyre Hunting". This is a fabric woven by the Weaving mill Marton Mills in a 12 oz Poly/Rayon blend. This name is different from the name used by the weaver who list this as MacIntyre (New/H).



Please note that these colors are very dark. About like the colors used in the Black Watch Tartan, Modern colorway.

Below are the Ancient, Modern, and Weathered versions of the Black Watch Tartan. And while the colors used are very different, all are exactly the same Tartan.




This is one of the reasons that we suggest that if you want the colors to match exactly, that you order fabric all from the same weaver. Preferably at the same time, so you get fabrics dyed from the same dye lot.


Is there perhaps a label inside your kilt that lists, not the person who sewed the kilt, but the weaving company that wove the fabric? If not, can you inquire from the person who made your kilt, which mill they sourced their fabric from?

Hi Steve,

How about this Tartan, a perfect match found on the DC Dalgliesh's website. You must have missed this one, McIntyre Old Hunting Ancient.

[figheadair]

Hi Steve,

How about this Tartan, a perfect match found on the DC Dalgliesh's website. You must have missed this one, McIntyre Old Hunting Ancient.

Light weight 16oz wool?

[davidlpope]

Hi Steve,

How about this Tartan, a perfect match found on the DC Dalgliesh's website. You must have missed this one, McIntyre Old Hunting Ancient.

Pardon my bluntness, but here's the deal: You just don't know enough about what you're wanting to get what you want.

There are five major tartan mills which produce stock tartan fabric for kilts: Lochcarron, House of Edgar, Strathmore, Marton Mills, and Dalgliesh. Yes, there are other mills which produce tartan, but most of the kilts that one sees are made of fabric from one of those mills.

If you are dead set on getting tartan items that match your current kilt (not a concern of most Highlanders in Scotland), you need to be able to specify which mill wove the fabric and which weight the fabric is in. Color scheme (ancient, modern, muted, weathered, reproduction) is pretty obvious by looking at the tartan IF one is experienced in dealing with tartan from these mills. Specifying tartan name, mill, fabric weight, and color scheme will then make sure that you're getting exactly what you want.

From the looks of it, I'd guess your kilt is from Lochcarron fabric, probably 13oz., in the "Ancient" color scheme. The tie and flashes are made by House of Edgar in their "Old Colours". Most of their tartan is 13oz., so that's what I'd guess as to weight. Lochcarron makes ties in 11oz fabric that will be a closer match to your kilt, but not perfect, as the shades used in those two weights of fabric are slightly different. Ditch the digital tartan finder programs. Order swatches from different mills if you need to, to get what you want.

Or, ditch the idea of a tartan tie and tartan flashes. They're really not the thing, anyway...