1750ish to 1767 Highland Regiments Backsword

[Luke MacGillie]

The regimental hilt sword market right now is horrible. Godwin no longer has backswords, only broadswords. CAS/Henwai’s sword is no longer in production, Mad Piper retired, I’m pretty sure MacDonald Armories has a multi year backlog.

There is no affordable option really for an enlisted mans issue sword.

I’m lucky that I have a Bicentennial era Godwin and fell into a Mad Piper hilt that I am finishing putting a blade on. These are now loaner swords for the units I belong to.

It’s hard to give advice on this topic.

[Jacques]

The regimental hilt sword market right now is horrible. Godwin no longer has backswords, only broadswords. CAS/Henwai’s sword is no longer in production, Mad Piper retired, I’m pretty sure MacDonald Armories has a multi year backlog.

There is no affordable option really for an enlisted mans issue sword.

I’m lucky that I have a Bicentennial era Godwin and fell into a Mad Piper hilt that I am finishing putting a blade on. These are now loaner swords for the units I belong to.

It’s hard to give advice on this topic.

Thank-you sir, i was hoping you'd jump in. i have access to the CAS backsword, but besides being of stainless steel (basket), did not think the basket was authentic to be considered Regt issue or ammunition grade. Armour Class (http://www.swordsmiths.co.uk/Data/Pages/Scottish_2.htm) swords has one basket similar to a photo i have seen of the heirloom broadsword allegedly carried by James Thompson with the 78th Regt. And i have one other reference the 78th Regt carried broadswords, but am not 100% convinced this is fact. i do know for certain the 77 Regt and the 42 Regt (at least when they departed for North America) were all in possession of government issue backswords. Armour swords (http://www.swordsmiths.co.uk/Data/Pages/Scottish_9.htm) also has a basket very similar to one made by Donnie Shearer, a name provided to me by Orvis. All the online searching has made me conclude i will never find exactly what i want, but can get very close depending on the size of my budget.

Thanks much

Jacques

[plaid preacher]

Jacques,

William Scully in Montreal provide swords to the Canadian Forces and have Scottish regimental swords.

[Orvis]

Thank-you sir, i was hoping you'd jump in. i have access to the CAS backsword, but besides being of stainless steel (basket), did not think the basket was authentic to be considered Regt issue or ammunition grade. Armour Class (http://www.swordsmiths.co.uk/Data/Pages/Scottish_2.htm) swords has one basket similar to a photo i have seen of the heirloom broadsword allegedly carried by James Thompson with the 78th Regt. And i have one other reference the 78th Regt carried broadswords, but am not 100% convinced this is fact. i do know for certain the 77 Regt and the 42 Regt (at least when they departed for North America) were all in possession of government issue backswords. Armour swords (http://www.swordsmiths.co.uk/Data/Pages/Scottish_9.htm) also has a basket very similar to one made by Donnie Shearer, a name provided to me by Orvis. All the online searching has made me conclude i will never find exactly what i want, but can get very close depending on the size of my budget.

Thanks much

Jacques

I agree with Luke on the state of the regimental backsword market. About the only way you can get one is to luckily encounter an Highland reenactor who is quitting/retiring and is willing to sell an authentic sword. It will cost you some money, especially if it is a Mad Piper sword. You can commission a custom-made sword, but that will cost you some money, possibly to prohibitive levels. Mike McRae, who specializes in 18th c. Highland dirks, has made baskethilt swords (he received instruction from Donnie Shearer) and might consider a commission if you can show him what you want; I have no idea what Mike would charge for such a project. Or, as Luke mentioned, Godwin still sells baskethilt broadswords, which have essentially the same hilt as his former regimental backsword. If you don't mind spending some money, you could purchase one of those and reblade it with a Del Tin backsword blade, then get a correct scabbard made. It might cost you U.S. $1,000 to get all this done.

As to the 78th Regiment (1757-63), it was issued government "ammunition quality" backswords through the Ordnance system. Possibly some of the men (such as Serjeant Thompson, who was a gentleman volunteer) brought their own swords and were paid "sword money" by the regiment for putting their swords into government service. In the Ordnance system, the Ordnance contracted for arms needed by the various regiments. In the case of baskethilt swords, they contracted with Nathaniel Jefferys and Dru Drury, sword cutlers of London, who produced the swords and sold them to the government for five shillings each. The government, in turn, sold them to the regimental colonels (who annually received money from the Crown for raising/maintaining their regiments). While the ORs had to pay the Colonel (through their company commanders) for their uniforms and various other equipage, I have found no documentation to indicate that they had to pay for their arms. Insofar as the 78th Regiment is concerned, you are right about them using their swords more than the other Highland regiments in North America (42nd RHR and Montgomery's 77th) - they famously used their swords in the climatic charge at the Battle of the Plains of Abraham (Quebec City) in 1759. Members of the 42nd may have charged with swords at the 1758 Battle of Ticonderoga. As to the 77th, it was a mixed bag as a Highland regiment - Archibald Montgomery, its Colonel, recruited from both sides of the Highland line and for many of the men, the Highland charge (with swords) wasn't in their heritage. The 78th, on the other hand, was recruited from formerly Jacobite areas of the west Highlands, and many of the men had fought in Prince Charlie's army in the '45 Rising, and had been taught from childhood how to fight with Highland weapons.

With regard to swords, you will want to read two books: John Wallace's "Scottish Swords and Dirks," Harrisburg PA, Stackpole Books, 1970, and Anthony D. Darling's "Swords for the Highland Regiments 1757-1784," Lincoln, RI: Andrew Mowbray Inc., 1988. You should be able to find these books via Amazon - they may not be cheap. These books will provide you with all the information you could reasonably want on Highland regimental swords.

[Jacques]

i had not considered taking the best of two to make one. If the G Godwin basket is as good, or at least passable as you and Luke suggest, i could assemble one with a Del Tin blade. And i agree with your comments on Thompson, who was also known to embellish some of his stories the more he repeated them. As he was looking for a commission it kind of makes sense he would have used his own sword as i'm sure most of the other officers had. i'd love to have access to the 78th Regts QM records for 1757. Armour class has some nice swords but have not seen any of their baskets close to authentic for what i desire, although they do have one basket very similar to the one used by Thompson. Both the books you referenced are available on Amazon, but they're sure not giving them away.

Sincerely

Jacques

[Orvis]

Jacques,

I'm sure Serjeant Thompson supplied his own sword, as he came from a socially well-off family and (as you said) was hoping as a volunteer to snag a commission in the regiment. Since officers had to supply their own uniforms, arms, etc, they would be using family heirlooms, or swords purchased from Glasgow or Stirling sword cutlers. I agree with you on the quality and authenticity of Armour Class (of Glasgow) swords - I have one of their broadswords with a Stirling hilt that I employ when I'm portraying a Highland gentleman with my Appin Regiment 1745 reenactment group. I think Armour Class is missing out on some sales by not including in their line a backsword with a regimental OR hilt. Their swords aren't that expensive - about USD $600 (or a little more) - and they would certainly have a market in the reenactment community!

[Jacques]

Just came across a reference online from the book; Swords and Blades of the American Revolution, 1995, George C Newman author. In the book he relates the Basket Hilt Backsword was an item of issue for Highland regiments from 1757. From 1725 to 1750ish the Independent Highland Companies/Black Watch/43 Regt/42 Regt were provided with a Government issue broadsword mounted with an almost identical basket hilt. Another reference used to make the aforementioned conclusion was lifted from the book; British Basket-Hilted Swords: A Typology of Basket-Type Sword Hilts, 2005, Cyril Mazansky author.

The more information i obtain/am provided with, the more confused i become. But don't let that stop you from providing more information.

Also, a question for anyone who has one of the G Godwin swords; are the pommels screwed on or peened? If the pommel is peened (hammered in place), it is going to be quite a bit more trouble to disassemble and then attach hilt a to blade b.


Jacques

[Orvis]

Just came across a reference online from the book; Swords and Blades of the American Revolution, 1995, George C Newman author. In the book he relates the Basket Hilt Backsword was an item of issue for Highland regiments from 1757. From 1725 to 1750ish the Independent Highland Companies/Black Watch/43 Regt/42 Regt were provided with a Government issue broadsword mounted with an almost identical basket hilt. Another reference used to make the aforementioned conclusion was lifted from the book; British Basket-Hilted Swords: A Typology of Basket-Type Sword Hilts, 2005, Cyril Mazansky author.

The more information i obtain/am provided with, the more confused i become. But don't let that stop you from providing more information.

Also, a question for anyone who has one of the G Godwin swords; are the pommels screwed on or peened? If the pommel is peened (hammered in place), it is going to be quite a bit more trouble to disassemble and then attach hilt a to blade b.

Jacques

On the Godwin backsword that I owned, the pommel was screwed onto the threaded end of the blade tang. After I sold it (to a fellow Jacobite reenactor), he removed the backsword blade (saving it to be remade into dirk blades) and installed a curved sabre-like blade, because he wanted a "turkail" such as the one that is portrayed in the portrait of the Grant Champion. So you shouldn't have any problems installing a new blade to your hilt.

I have copies of Neuman's "Swords and Blades" and Mazansky's "Baskethilt Sword Hilts" and I don't dispute the conclusions they made about the early swords of the 42nd and its predecessors. My theory is that the "ammunition quality" hilt existed prior to 1757, but when the Colonels/Independent Company requested swords from the Ordnance system, they could specify whether they wanted them with broadsword blades or backsword blades. Another point is that Neuman and Mazansky may have been working with swords that had been rebladed with broadsword blades in the 18th century, and they had aged with the hilts so as to appear as original equipment. There is still much to be learned about 18th century Highland swords, particularly regimental ones, and hopefully it will surface. In the meantime, I encourage you to go forward and learn as much as you can, and then proceed on what you know. If better information surfaces a day later, so be it, but you've done the best you can.

[Luke MacGillie]

BC36209D-B761-4059-AC66-521E2872045D.jpg

This was the now discontinued CAS/Henwai sword I was speaking of earlier.

They might be out there in the wild. Like all other reproductions, they are too big.

The stainless hilt can be hidden by japanning.

[Jacques]

Thank-you for the additional information. It helps me a great deal in forming my conclusions regarding which direction to proceed. i had not seen that particular CAS/Hanwei sword, only the Highland backsword and broadsword Hanwei currently offers for sale, and if the Hanwei backsword has a screw on pommel it can be purchased locally for next to nothing and i can use it with a G Godwin basket. At least until something better comes along. Have also discovered online the backsword was used as early as the 17th century and were cheaper to produce, which would suggest to me your conclusions are correct. And lastly, i have learned if some one goes to the trouble and expense of producing a book, it's more likely to be filled with facts when compared to online opinion from some one, who gathered their opinion from other online opinions. So i appreciate your efforts.

Thanks much

Jacques