Thoughts on materials....

[OC Richard]

For myself the "ideal kilt" is a traditional kilt of heavyweight 16oz wool, but having between 6 and 7 yards.

I found this out when a Pipe Band I used to play in issued me a kilt that was the most comfortable I'd ever worn.

It was 16oz wool, which IMHO you can't beat for feel and look and holding pleats, yet the kilt wasn't heavy.

I wondered, and when I measured the yardage I found that the kilt contained just under 7 yards. The pleats were around 3/4 inch wide.

So the next two kilts I ordered I asked for them to be made that way, 6.5 to 7 yards, and I love them.

Just last week I ordered a new kilt (for the first time in a decade) and it will be 6 yards of 16oz wool.

[Barb T]

Kilts for Highland dancers are most commonly made from 11 oz tartan (DC Dalgliesh has somewhere ~ 100 tartans in 11 oz), and they look terrific and swing just fine:



Having said that, they do wrinkle more easily than heavier weight tartan. I do agree with Steve, though, that 10 oz is pretty light (and there actually is a difference between 10 and 11 oz.).

I'd also say that, as a piper, I wear a band kilt pretty much at least once every weekend from May through September (well, I did before COVID-19), and it's not the kilt per se that's hot. It's hot under the kilt belt (which isn't any different in an 11 oz kilt than a 16 oz one), and the kilt hose are hot (ditto). The back of a 16 oz kilt IS a lot heavier (in weight) than the back of a lighter weight kilt, and a 4-yard box pleated kilt in 16 oz is a well-balanced alternative that feels lighter in weight than an 8-yard trad knife pleated kilt in 16 oz.

[McMurdo]

I would say that a 4 or 5 yard box pleat may well be the ticket. I spent quite a bit of time in NC though in the Western Mountains. At any rate what I found worked very well were 4 yard box pleated kilts in 16 oz wool. Incidentally these were made by Matt Newsome in Franklin NC. For me anyway, the lower yardage really made the difference.

Here is the Carolina tartan in a 4 yard kilt in 16 oz wool. I think it looks great, and is perfect for the summer months, however it is different than what you might be used to.

[Scotlad45]

Kilts for Highland dancers are most commonly made from 11 oz tartan (DC Dalgliesh has somewhere ~ 100 tartans in 11 oz), and they look terrific and swing just fine:



Having said that, they do wrinkle more easily than heavier weight tartan. I do agree with Steve, though, that 10 oz is pretty light (and there actually is a difference between 10 and 11 oz.).

I'd also say that, as a piper, I wear a band kilt pretty much at least once every weekend from May through September (well, I did before COVID-19), and it's not the kilt per se that's hot. It's hot under the kilt belt (which isn't any different in an 11 oz kilt than a 16 oz one), and the kilt hose are hot (ditto). The back of a 16 oz kilt IS a lot heavier (in weight) than the back of a lighter weight kilt, and a 4-ounce box pleated kilt in 16 oz is a well-balanced alternative that feels lighter in weight than an 8-yard trad knife pleated kilt in 16 oz.

What I'm starting to grasp is that the movement is more a function of the pleating that the material weight- smaller pleating = better movement...
Heavier material will hold the pleats better...

I agree that heavier or lighter makes little makes little difference regardless of the weather- wool is a remarkably versatile, all weather material, particularly in a loose garment. The waistband will likely be warmer the heavier and denser the material. Why they are lined with cotton boggles the mind.... fortunately, for my application, I'll not be wearing kilt hose, not a good option for an even remotely warm environment. I'll have the luxury of proper, well made wool socks that work well from right around freezing to 100°....

I suppose, for casual or physical purposes, weight- or percieved weight, is a greater consideration that heat.... 8yds of 16oz material is 8 pounds slung about the waist- q bit more actually. 6.5 pounds in 13oz wool. 5 yards of 13oz wool is a hair over 4lbs...
"Feeling" light has value in itself....

While a synthetic semi traditional would probably be more than suitable for my purposes, the lack of availability of the desired tartan(s) is problematic. This leaves me in the "mid range" of 5yd, 13oz wool.... at $300, its steeper than I was hoping, but not soul crushing...

[The Wizard of BC]

I would say that the method of construction has more effect on the swish than any other factor. A well made kilt of 11oz can swish just as well as a 16oz if constructed well.

On a kilt that is less well constructed it really does not matter what the fabric composition or weight is. Or how the fabric is folded into pleats.

This comes down not to the outer fabric. Be it synthetic Tartan, Solid, Wool, Poly/Cotton, anything. It comes down to the internal construction.

The less expensive kilts you have suffer first from a less expensive fabric which is why they wrinkle and do not hold a pleat crease. But they are also made differently than a kilt. It is very unlikely that they have the attention to detail, the full floating interfacing and stabilizer and the experience of a kiltmaker.

The Poly/Cotton utility kilt you have is made like blue jeans. All the strength of the garment, the fit and the swish, come from the fabric and the stitching. Due to this method of construction they will never move and swish like a kilt.

As Barb has shown even a light weight fabric can swish well.

So what is all this hoopla over 16oz wool. Well it comes down to 1) weight - a 16oz kilt just feels strong and masculine when you wear it. Very few women would feel good in 4 pounds of wool. 2) the pleats - 16oz wool is an amazing fabric for holding a crease. You can dry clean them, wash them in the tub, sit on them all day and the pleat creases just hold. 3) A good quality kilt fabric is a dream to sew and work with. Many people when they first think of trying kiltmaking will often post that they want to buy some inexpensive fabric to practice on. Kiltmakers always advise that good quality 16oz wool is, by far, the easiest fabric to work with.

So now you are down to composition and weight.

As far as composition you have your choice of a 65%Polyester/35%Rayon fabric (AKA Marton Mills Balmoral range) or 100% wool.

As far as weight you have 10-11 oz, 13 oz and 16oz. Wool only. (Yes, one mill sells what they call 'regimental' weight 18 oz but the current RRS kilts are 16oz.)

And finally how the fabric is folded into pleats.

And this effects the final weight of the garment even more than the fabric weight.

A box pleated kilt made for a guy with 42 inch hips will have just about half the amount of fabric as a knife pleated kilt for the same guy.
So a 4 yard box pleated kilt, made in 16oz wool will weigh in at right around 2 pounds.
An 8 yard knife pleated kilt, made in 16oz wool will weight in at right around 4 pounds.

An 8 yard knife pleated kilt, made in 12 oz Poly/Rayon will weigh in at 3 pounds.

Knife pleats will, in general, swish more, not better, than box pleats. All else equal.

And to me personally, I don't think it is the kilt that is hot. A kilt is a skirt. It is open at the bottom. So for the same reason that ladies wear skirts in summer to feel cooler, a kilt will feel cooler than pants. As Barb pointed out it is in the back at the kilt belt that you will sweat. I have worn 16oz, 8yard kilts in AZ in August. Was I hot, well, duh, but my legs were in the shade and cool. I was sweating under the belt and under my shirt.

[Barb T]

I agree with Steve's analysis of kilt swing and just want to add a couple things. One of the main factors governing whether a kilt swings/swishes well is the length of the fell (that's the stitched part of the pleats). If the fell is too short relative to the overall length of the kilt (or if the pleats aren't stitched down at all), the pleats aren't controlled enough, and they don't swing back and forth as a nice unit as the person walks or dances. So the pleats look flippy instead of swingy. If the pleats are stitched down too far, the fell controls too much of the fabric and there isn't enough weight in the unstitched part of the pleats to give the momentum of the swing.

I suppose it also has something to do with periodicity of the driving force (walking or dancing). If you did a thought experiment about it you could imagine taking a lot of little rapid steps, and the kilt swing would be all discombobulated; ditto if you took really long, slow steps - you could imagine the kilt swinging back at exactly the wrong time for the second step to drive the swing. So, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that the length of the fell evolved empirically. Aaaaaaannnnyway, Steve the engineer can weigh in on that little notion!

Even with the bottom of the fell in the right place, the weight of the unstitched part IS important. The heavier weight of 16 oz tartan will swing better than 11 oz tartan in a kilt of the same size and yardage.

What I'm starting to grasp is that the movement is more a function of the pleating that the material weight- smaller pleating = better movement...

So, yes, the weight of the tartan driving the swish is the important thing, but weight is not correlated with pleat size. Pleat size is a function of the size of the sett. If I made a kilt for an average-size guy with 8 yards of Volcano tartan, I might get 20 pleats that are an inch across and about 5" deep, because the sett size is about 10 1/2". If I made a kilt for the same guy with 8 yards of tartan with a sett size of 7 1/2", I might get 27 pleats that are 3/4" across and 3 1/2" deep. Both kilts would have exactly the same amount of yardage in the back (i.e., the same weight), just divided into different numbers of pleats, and the swing will be pretty much the same.

[davidlpope]

For myself the "ideal kilt" is a traditional kilt of heavyweight 16oz wool, but having between 6 and 7 yards.

I found this out when a Pipe Band I used to play in issued me a kilt that was the most comfortable I'd ever worn.

It was 16oz wool, which IMHO you can't beat for feel and look and holding pleats, yet the kilt wasn't heavy.

I wondered, and when I measured the yardage I found that the kilt contained just under 7 yards. The pleats were around 3/4 inch wide.

So the next two kilts I ordered I asked for them to be made that way, 6.5 to 7 yards, and I love them.

Just last week I ordered a new kilt (for the first time in a decade) and it will be 6 yards of 16oz wool.

I echo Richard's thoughts. I think you're looking for a 16oz., low-yardage, knife-pleated kilt. Here's an old thread where I sing their virtues:

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...t-kilts-67177/

[Scotlad45]

Thanks for all the input - and the detailed information on construction and materials.... its an education.

The material will need to be wool, if only for the tartan availability. I'm thinking that 5-6yd is going to be about right.
13 vs 16oz becomes the last significant decision...

[Barb T]

The material will need to be wool, if only for the tartan availability. I'm thinking that 5-6yd is going to be about right.
13 vs 16oz becomes the last significant decision...

And you are so right. Unless someone is interested in a commonly woven tartan, the weight of the tartan is controlled by what's available. Better to have a kilt in an 11 oz tartan that you want, than to have a kilt in a 16 oz tartan that you don't like so much!

I do try to encourage someone who is interested in a shorter yardage kilt to choose 16 oz tartan (especially for a 4-yard box pleated kilt), if the tartan they're interested in comes in both weights. The swing will be better, and I truly don't think it's hotter. But, in the end, it's an individual decision.

[Scotlad45]

Steve and Barb- thank you so much for all the technical insight as to various options, and the pros and cons of each. The information on actually weights is helpful
as well- about half of what basic logic and arithmetic would suggest. Likewise, the details of how construction affects movement is invaluable...