X Marks the Scot - An on-line community of kilt wearers.

   X Marks Partners - (Go to the Partners Dedicated Forums )
USA Kilts website Celtic Croft website Celtic Corner website Houston Kiltmakers

User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 25

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Join Date
    18th October 09
    Location
    Orange County California
    Posts
    11,408
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by figheadair View Post
    So You're Going to Wear the Kilt saying something along the lines of 'the only correct hose for evening wear are Castellated Hose'.
    How silly!

    They seem always to have been somewhat rare, a bit over-the-top.

    What I wonder is, could the Allen brothers have invented the things? Perhaps by analogy with the castellated clothing trope encountered in modern depictions of the Middle Ages?



    If not invent, the Allen Brothers may have done much to make them more popular.
    Last edited by OC Richard; 20th June 21 at 09:37 PM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  2. #2
    Join Date
    2nd January 10
    Location
    Lethendy, Perthshire
    Posts
    4,764
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    If not invent, the Allen Brothers may have done much to make them more popular.
    Agreed Richard. There Costume of the Clans featured catellated type hose.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Costume of the Clans.jpg 
Views:	17 
Size:	105.1 KB 
ID:	40247

  3. The Following User Says 'Aye' to figheadair For This Useful Post:


  4. #3
    Join Date
    18th October 09
    Location
    Orange County California
    Posts
    11,408
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by figheadair View Post
    Agreed Richard. There Costume of the Clans featured catellated type hose.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Costume of the Clans.jpg 
Views:	17 
Size:	105.1 KB 
ID:	40247
    Wow. Is there any historicity to that outfit? Or is it from the Allen Brothers imagination?
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  5. #4
    Join Date
    2nd January 10
    Location
    Lethendy, Perthshire
    Posts
    4,764
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    Wow. Is there any historicity to that outfit? Or is it from the Allen Brothers imagination?
    I think this is a classic example of the Allen Brothers using an existing portrait and letting their imagination run wild. In this case, I'm sure that the Mungo Murray portrait was the source. The arrangement of the plaid, the doublet, hose and the ostrich feather bonnet are all similar.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	COTC vs.jpg 
Views:	21 
Size:	187.9 KB 
ID:	40255

    Another from Costume of the Clans, this one is based on the portrait of Lord Duffus.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	COTC Lord Duffus-sm.jpg 
Views:	11 
Size:	90.1 KB 
ID:	40256
    Last edited by figheadair; 21st June 21 at 11:29 PM.

  6. The Following 2 Users say 'Aye' to figheadair For This Useful Post:


  7. #5
    Join Date
    18th October 09
    Location
    Orange County California
    Posts
    11,408
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Wow they did let their imagination run wild with the Murray portrait! I didn't recognise it.

    The Lord Duffus one stays closer to the source, but still, why not reproduce the original? Rather than re-imagining it?

    Obviously taking original period iconography, embellishing it, and presenting the embellished version as historical, flies in the face of proper methodology.

    Those re-imaginings do give us a bit of insight into the way their minds worked: play fast-and-loose with the facts, and present their own creations as being historical.

    In any case the Allens' creations get us no closer to the origin of the castellated hose.
    Last edited by OC Richard; 22nd June 21 at 06:10 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  8. #6
    Join Date
    2nd January 10
    Location
    Lethendy, Perthshire
    Posts
    4,764
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    Wow they did let their imagination run wild with the Murray portrait! I didn't recognise it.

    Obviously taking original period iconography, embellishing it, and presenting the embellished version as historical, flies in the face of proper methodology.

    Those re-imaginings do give us a bit of insight into the way their minds worked: play fast-and-loose with the facts, and present their own creations as being historical.

    In any case the Allens' creations get us no closer to the origin of the castellated hose.
    Here's another of their fantasy images in which the (plain) castellated hose are clear. I can't haven't worked out what the source for this one was but it has elements of Waitt's Champion and Piper to the Laird of Grant.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	c1331-6a.jpg 
Views:	189 
Size:	176.8 KB 
ID:	40262

  9. #7
    Join Date
    10th October 08
    Location
    Louisville, Kentucky, USA (38° 13' 11"N x 85° 37' 32"W gets you close)
    Posts
    1,647
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by figheadair View Post
    Here's another of their fantasy images in which the (plain) castellated hose are clear. I can't haven't worked out what the source for this one was but it has elements of Waitt's Champion and Piper to the Laird of Grant.

    Images like this put me in mind of paintings I have seen of the 15th and 16th century European court dress. (King Henry VIII and earlier). The leg coverings would be the main thing making it a bit different, since in the court dress paintings, they appear to be wearing tight-fitting leggings going all the way up (would they be called trews?) rather than the knee-length socks we call kilt hose.

    Nothing else to add to the conversation.
    Last edited by EagleJCS; 23rd June 21 at 10:55 AM.
    John

  10. #8
    Join Date
    18th October 09
    Location
    Orange County California
    Posts
    11,408
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by figheadair View Post
    Here's another of their fantasy images in which the (plain) castellated hose are clear. I can't haven't worked out what the source for this one was but it has elements of Waitt's Champion and Piper to the Laird of Grant.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	c1331-6a.jpg 
Views:	189 
Size:	176.8 KB 
ID:	40262
    Ha!

    I just saw that they used a B&W version of that for the cover of Seumas MacNeill's book on piobaireachd.

    I wonder if the publishers have a clue about the image's origin. I'm sure they imagine it's a genuine depiction of a piper from some unknown past.

    BTW whichever Allen brother drew that obviously didn't quite understand what Highland bagpipes (or any bagpipes) look like. The pipes in the Allen drawing are a strange blend between ornate silver-mounted Victorian pipes and the stereotypical trumpet-like bells seen on old illustrations of bagpipes all over Europe. In fact Highland pipes never seem to have had such bells, nor any other sort of bagpipe now that I think about it. (Modern makers who have turned reproduction bagpipes with the big trumpet bells seen in Mediaeval drawings discovered that they waste a huge amount of timber for negligible acoustic effect.)

    Last edited by OC Richard; 25th June 21 at 04:51 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  11. #9
    Join Date
    26th March 21
    Location
    Chardon, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    105
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    How silly!

    They seem always to have been somewhat rare, a bit over-the-top.

    What I wonder is, could the Allen brothers have invented the things? Perhaps by analogy with the castellated clothing trope encountered in modern depictions of the Middle Ages?



    If not invent, the Allen Brothers may have done much to make them more popular.
    Not just modern depictions. Castellated hoods and tunics were common in the High Middle Ages among the upper classes. The style is usually called "dagged" or "crenellated" in this context. If you scroll down on the following page and click on the "Historical Inspirations" down-arrow, you'll see some renderings from period paintings.

    https://revivalclothing.com/product/...-3f737b1f-9d6f

    As to what inspired the Allen brothers, I can't say.
    When in doubt, end with a jig. - Robin McCauley

  12. #10
    Join Date
    18th October 09
    Location
    Orange County California
    Posts
    11,408
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Thanks for that!

    They refer to Gaston Phoebus' Hunting Book (c1388) which I'd never heard of. It has an amazing collection of detailed paintings showing the clothing of the period.

    If only we had something like that showing Highland Dress!

    I wonder what the earliest depiction of castellated hose is. In the Hunting Book it appears on head-dress.

    (I posted an image from the Hunting Book, then removed it when I realised it probably violates a number of rules here! It's pretty gruesome.)
    Last edited by OC Richard; 21st June 21 at 05:13 PM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  13. The Following User Says 'Aye' to OC Richard For This Useful Post:


Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.2.0