Ghillie Laces done up high to knee?

[Kriegbert]

I've come across a few photos, for example at this site below, where the laces of the ghillies are done up almost to the knee. Do any of you know the history of ghillies as in whether at some point in history they were worn crisss-corssed up to the knee, & if so, when modern ghillies started being laced up only up to mid-height-ish?

Any info would be appreciated.

https://www.the-larp-store.com/p-584...lie-shoes.aspx

[OC Richard]

The history of what we call Ghillie Brogues (or "Ghillie ties" as I've also heard them called) is difficult to trace.

I can't find any images of them prior to Victorian times.

In The Highlanders Of Scotland, watercolour portraits of 56 kilted men painted in the late 1860s, the footwear seen is as follows:

"Mary Jane" style brogues: 25
"Ghillie" style brogues: 11
ordinary shoes 10
"buckle loafers" (my term) 5
ankle boots 3
hybrid shoes halfway between Mary Janes and Ghillies 1
spats 1

Of the 11 pairs of Ghillies, 9 are tan rough leather, 1 is smooth taupe leather, 1 is smooth black leather with decorative nonfunctional buckles added.

None of the shoes are laced high.

Here's one of the 9 pair of rough tan Ghillies



Here's the sole (!) pair of black Ghillies, the laces are a bit high



It helps IMHO to think of the Ghillie laces as you would a wristwatch.

Common sense dictates that both stay in place best if they're positioned at the narrowest part of the limb.

Put your wristwatch partway up your forearm, and it's going to end up down at the wrist. Tie the Ghillie laces partway up your calf and they're going to end up down at the ankle. Keep in mind that Highland Dress is clothing, and the traditional way to wear everything is the way which generations of wearers have found most practical.

[Kriegbert]

The history of what we call Ghillie Brogues (or "Ghillie ties" as I've also heard them called) is difficult to trace.

I can't find any images of them prior to Victorian times.

In The Highlanders Of Scotland, watercolour portraits of 56 kilted men painted in the late 1860s, the footwear seen is as follows:

"Mary Jane" style brogues: 25
"Ghillie" style brogues: 11
ordinary shoes 10
"buckle loafers" (my term) 5
ankle boots 3
hybrid shoes halfway between Mary Janes and Ghillies 1
spats 1

Of the 11 pairs of Ghillies, 9 are tan rough leather, 1 is smooth taupe leather, 1 is smooth black leather with decorative nonfunctional buckles added.

None of the shoes are laced high.

Here's one of the 9 pair of rough tan Ghillies



Here's the sole (!) pair of black Ghillies, the laces are a bit high



It helps IMHO to think of the Ghillie laces as you would a wristwatch.

Common sense dictates that both stay in place best if they're positioned at the narrowest part of the limb.

Put your wristwatch partway up your forearm, and it's going to end up down at the wrist. Tie the Ghillie laces partway up your calf and they're going to end up down at the ankle. Keep in mind that Highland Dress is clothing, and the traditional way to wear everything is the way which generations of wearers have found most practical.

Ahhh, but with that logic, if you bypass the midcalf & tie it right up there at just below the knee, which is narrower than the calf, it would equally stay well as if it did the ankle? I think we can certainly say anywhere that's not actually part of the calf. Still, I am interested as I have seen a few of this arrangement of laces at renaissance fairs & the like.

[OC Richard]

Ahhh, but with that logic, if you bypass the midcalf & tie it right up there at just below the knee, which is narrower than the calf, it would equally stay well as if it did the ankle? I think we can certainly say anywhere that's not actually part of the calf. Still, I am interested as I have seen a few of this arrangement of laces at renaissance fairs & the like.

Yes and you could wear your watch around your elbow!

I have a large collection of vintage photos of men in Highland Dress, and from what I see the thing of lacing up around the legs is quite modern, and not done by people raised wearing Highland Dress on a regular basis, but people to whom Highland Dress is historical costume. (The fact that Ghillies aren't seen prior to the Victorian period doesn't stop them from wearing them with quasi-Renaissance costumes, however.)

My belief is that the high-lacing-thing is done from false analogy with Viking costumes etc.

Here's a group of people who have worn Highland Dress regularly since they were youngsters. They're tying their Ghillies in a practical way, fast to do, and which will stay in place. The laces aren't for show. They're not a costume. The laces are there to tie the shoes.



What about in Victorian times? Here they're laced quite low



And here c1930 the same practical way anyone used to wearing Highland Dress would do

[MacKenzie]

The ghillie style of full brogue has no tongue, to facilitate drying, and long laces that wrap around the leg above the ankle and tie below the calf to facilitate keeping the tie clear of mud. Despite the functional aspects of their design, ghillies brogues are most commonly seen as a component of traditional, formal Scottish dress and are worn primarily for social occasions.

https://www.scotsinspirit.com/blogs/...ghillie-brogue

[OC Richard]

https://www.scotsinspirit.com/blogs/...ghillie-brogue

Wow that article is quite a hodgepodge.

It's tempting to make an evolutionary connection between the rough-and-ready footwear described in that old account and the Ghillie Brogues as we know them, which are first seen in Victorian times.

And for sure traditional folk footwear more or less like the Aran pamputai have long existed in Bulgaria and other European cultures, and it's tempting to make a connection between these various things and the Scottish Highland footwear described.

The trouble is, I've haven't seen any evidence demonstrating such evolutionary connections.

I would love to know more! But that article doesn't appear to add anything to our knowledge of the origin of the Victorian/modern Scottish Highland Ghillie Brogues.

[Kriegbert]

Wow that article is quite a hodgepodge.

It's tempting to make an evolutionary connection between the rough-and-ready footwear described in that old account and the Ghillie Brogues as we know them, which are first seen in Victorian times.

And for sure traditional folk footwear more or less like the Aran pamputai have long existed in Bulgaria and other European cultures, and it's tempting to make a connection between these various things and the Scottish Highland footwear described.

The trouble is, I've haven't seen any evidence demonstrating such evolutionary connections.

I would love to know more! But that article doesn't appear to add anything to our knowledge of the origin of the Victorian/modern Scottish Highland Ghillie Brogues.

Your closeups of the ghillie brogues have reminded me of another detail: broguing. One mostly only finds of ghillie brogues the heavily brogued types today; but this clearly shows less brogued versions. Particularly the extended heel quarters shape is interesting It would be good if one could compile a repository of ghillie brogue designs

[Queenslander]

Three twists of the laces at the front, three twists at the back then tied in front- sits securely just above the ankle.

[stickman]

Good picture of the Field Marshal Montgomerie pipe band. About 30 years ago I was working in Ulster and asked about pipe bands. It so happened one mans son played with FMM pipe band and he took me to a chanter practice session. There were 10 members playing and they sounded like 1 loud chanter. I went to the British championships with them in Stranraer Scotland where they took first place. Then everyone went to the beer tent. The guy that took me to the practice session had a pint in each hand (he was drinking both) .When I asked if they had to play again his answer was "ah it does nea matter if I get drunk the pipes will just play ther sels.