Ghillie brogues - why the dislike and resentment..?

[OC Richard]

There seems to be two subjects that provoke endless controversy, one of which is white socks...

That's just the comings and goings of fashion.

I well remember when the gleaming pure white hose first appeared on the feet of some of the world's top Pipe Bands and they were suddenly the height of fashion, with all the bands scrambling to get them.

Then inevitably the wheel of fashion turned and the world's top Pipe Band suddenly switched to black hose, and if your band was wearing white you were announcing to everyone that you were living under a rock.

Be around long enough and you see these repeated 20-year cycles, just as you do in the world of non-Highland fashion.

[Jock Scot]

That's just the comings and goings of fashion.

I well remember when the gleaming pure white hose first appeared on the feet of some of the world's top Pipe Bands and they were suddenly the height of fashion, with all the bands scrambling to get them.

Then inevitably the wheel of fashion turned and the world's top Pipe Band suddenly switched to black hose, and if your band was wearing white you were announcing to everyone that you were living under a rock.

Be around long enough and you see these repeated 20-year cycles, just as you do in the world of non-Highland fashion.

I have never been convinced that traditional highland attire, in Scotland, has ever seriously followed pipe band fashions. For sure some might ,but certainly in the Highlands here in Scotland I do not see THCD being guided by what pipe bands are wearing and never have. Perhaps the kilt hire industry might be? I really don't know.

[Ivor]

From an interested observer’s view, my consideration is that highland dress is a distinct form of dress, not a divergence from what some may call “Saxon dress” i.e. a suit, 2 or 3 piece, with shirt and tie and usually black shoes, sometimes described here in American terms as “wingtips”. Presumably this distinctiveness derived from a separate source and a truly representative form of distinctive Scottish dress would be a kilt(obviously) with Doublet and jabot, patterned hose perhaps to match the tartan of the kilt and footwear of a distinctive Scottish kind. Anything else becomes a parody of English or “ Saxon” clothing and, while perfectly acceptable and perhaps even more practical, detracts from the purpose of dressing in an authentic way. A great deal of scorn is expressed here from time to time about dress choices, particularly when it comes to footwear but also socks and even shirts, but if Scottish dress is to continue as a unique and distinctive form then ghillie brogues and even buckle brogues must remain an integral part.

[Jock Scot]

From an interested observer’s view, my consideration is that highland dress is a distinct form of dress, not a divergence from what some may call “Saxon dress” i.e. a suit, 2 or 3 piece, with shirt and tie and usually black shoes, sometimes described here in American terms as “wingtips”. Presumably this distinctiveness derived from a separate source and a truly representative form of distinctive Scottish dress would be a kilt(obviously) with Doublet and jabot, patterned hose perhaps to match the tartan of the kilt and footwear of a distinctive Scottish kind. Anything else becomes a parody of English or “ Saxon” clothing and, while perfectly acceptable and perhaps even more practical, detracts from the purpose of dressing in an authentic way. A great deal of scorn is expressed here from time to time about dress choices, particularly when it comes to footwear but also socks and even shirts, but if Scottish dress is to continue as a unique and distinctive form then ghillie brogues and even buckle brogues must remain an integral part.

I quite agree. Although it would help greatly if people could differentiate between pipe band attire and traditional civilian kilt attire . Which is not the same. It is certainly similar, but absolutely not the same.

[Ivor]

Happy Christmas, Jock, and I hope Santa has been good to you. I don’t know about pipe bands but presumably those in places unfamiliar with Scottish dress would only see pipe bands and take that as their example as to how the clothing is worn. Maybe that is why we read here about fly plaids, dirks, hair sporrans etc. although no spats and feather bonnets ( so far at least). 😋😂

[Jock Scot]

Happy Christmas, Jock, and I hope Santa has been good to you. I don’t know about pipe bands but presumably those in places unfamiliar with Scottish dress would only see pipe bands and take that as their example as to how the clothing is worn. Maybe that is why we read here about fly plaids, dirks, hair sporrans etc. although no spats and feather bonnets ( so far at least). ����

Thank you for your kind wishes.

You have "hit the nail squarely on the head", with your observations.

[FossilHunter]

From an interested observer’s view, my consideration is that highland dress is a distinct form of dress, not a divergence from what some may call “Saxon dress” i.e. a suit, 2 or 3 piece, with shirt and tie and usually black shoes, sometimes described here in American terms as “wingtips”. Presumably this distinctiveness derived from a separate source and a truly representative form of distinctive Scottish dress would be a kilt(obviously) with Doublet and jabot, patterned hose perhaps to match the tartan of the kilt and footwear of a distinctive Scottish kind. Anything else becomes a parody of English or “ Saxon” clothing and, while perfectly acceptable and perhaps even more practical, detracts from the purpose of dressing in an authentic way. A great deal of scorn is expressed here from time to time about dress choices, particularly when it comes to footwear but also socks and even shirts, but if Scottish dress is to continue as a unique and distinctive form then ghillie brogues and even buckle brogues must remain an integral part.

I think your statement misses a few points. The most important of which is the strong possibility, discussed already in this thread, that the open topped shoe, laced around the ankle, that eventually became known as the ghillie shoe, may well have been invented whole-cloth by a pair of charlatans. There seems to be ample evidence that buckle shoes were quite popular at one point but they were not uniquely Highland or even Scottish. George Washington wore buckle shoes.

On the other hand, brogued shoes of any kind seem to have originated in Scotland and have a unique position in Highland formal wear since brogues are emphatically in the realm of informal shoe when it comes to Saxon dress. In fact, far from simply being a simple divergence from Saxon dress, traditional highland dress has a number of elements of what is acceptable for a given formality level that make it unique from Saxon dress. That doesn’t mean there hasn’t been cross pollination over the last 200 years but I think it’s incorrect to simply attribute wearing a tie and real shoes with a kilt to a Saxonization of Highland dress. These are two counties sharing a small island and a long shared, if often rocky, history. It’s almost amazing that Highland dress has managed to stay as unique as it is.

[Ivor]

Forgive me for missing any abstruse historical points which, although perhaps interesting to those of an historical bent, have absolutely nothing to do with Scottish dress as it is worn today. None of it significantly pre-dates the late 18th century and what we see today is mostly a later creation, encouraged greatly by the influence of “Balmorality” where the influence of Victoria and Albert led to the aristocratic and moneyed classes enthusiastically embracing everything Scottish. They bought large tracts of Scottish land, built extravagant castles and spent the season there trying to wipe out the local wildlife and the evenings dressing up in every possible tartan outfit imaginable.
The passage of time has mellowed these excesses to a large degree to the extent that we can now define highland dress much as we now see it as in the earlier post with a kilt, doublet of some design, jabot, coloured hose and ghillie or buckle brogues.
There are, of course, variations on this but this is essentially highland dress as a distinctive form of dress in Scotland.

[FossilHunter]

Forgive me for missing any abstruse historical points which, although perhaps interesting to those of an historical bent, have absolutely nothing to do with Scottish dress as it is worn today. None of it significantly pre-dates the late 18th century and what we see today is mostly a later creation, encouraged greatly by the influence of “Balmorality” where the influence of Victoria and Albert led to the aristocratic and moneyed classes enthusiastically embracing everything Scottish. They bought large tracts of Scottish land, built extravagant castles and spent the season there trying to wipe out the local wildlife and the evenings dressing up in every possible tartan outfit imaginable.
The passage of time has mellowed these excesses to a large degree to the extent that we can now define highland dress much as we now see it as in the earlier post with a kilt, doublet of some design, jabot, coloured hose and ghillie or buckle brogues.
There are, of course, variations on this but this is essentially highland dress as a distinctive form of dress in Scotland.

If that’s your argument then the tweed coat and black oxfords or perhaps ankle boots with a tie of some sort seems to have nearly as long a pedigree. The owners of balmoral have been dressing that way for as long as they’ve owned it. Prince Albert seemed to favor Mary Jane type shoes in his portraits.



A generation later, his sons seemed to exclusively favor smooth oxfords for daywear.

[Ivor]

You are, of course, referring to a German individual whose only connection to Scotland was by buying up land there and who created a pseudo german schloss at Balmoral, complete with turrets just like back home. Unfortunately Scotland has undergone many such pastiches over many years at the hands of many from outwith Scotland eager to create an imagined Shangri La populated by compliant vassals to cater to their every whim. It is reported that Albert’s descendants continued to converse among themselves in German until fairly recently although they did change their family name after World War I due to negative feedback at the time. So all in all perhaps not the best of examples when discussing things Scottish.